Chris Bright 0:06
Welcome to the thinking church podcast with me, Chris bright. Every week, I'll be speaking with a church leader about ministry strategy, and getting to grips with not just what they do, but the thinking behind why they do it. So without further ado, let's get on with the show. Well, my guest today is Amy Jordan. Amy is the executive lead pastor at one church, Gloucester, and she is also responsible for overseeing all of the Sunday services across the one church network. Me It's so great to have you on my podcast.
Amy Jorden 0:42
Hello, thank you so much for having me. It's a it's a privilege to be here on your podcast.
Chris Bright 0:47
Well, it's a privilege to have you and and also to talk to you in your in your office, I've noticed in the background, you have a rugby ball. Is this is this? I didn't realise you were into rugby, is this? Is this a thing? Or
Amy Jorden 1:00
I just like to throw some spirals every now and then. It's definitely not my rugby ball.
Chris Bright 1:08
Well, it's great to have you on the show today. And I'm really excited to dive into this topic. Because I think your role one church, I mean, you got a million roles at one church, but one of them specifically is, is, as I said, just now overseeing the all of the Sunday services. So we're gonna want to kind of dive into some of that your experience with it, how you found bringing things together, planning it all, I think there's loads to dive into, which I think will be really helpful. So tell us a bit about that role. What's involved with overseeing all of the Sunday services, what does that look like?
Amy Jorden 1:47
Yeah, it's, like you said, it's a role that I think it does involve a lot. So our Sunday services, I think, on the surface can look really simple. But there's a lot happening behind the scenes. So we've tried to break down our Sunday services into a few different areas. So we have programme, creative and guest services as our main kind of areas for our Sunday service. And so we they include things like programme or things like the random sheets, who's hosting the timings of the morning and the service, what elements we're going to have involved creative, it are things like worship or production if we have any performance elements. And if we have things like stage design, and things like that, and then guest services are how we look after our guests, so the hosting, hospitality, car park, all of those kind of elements connecting new people in. So it is it's, there's a lot involved in it. But I think the aim is that nobody really knows that unless you go behind the scenes, a guest doesn't necessarily realise all of those elements happening behind the scenes. Yeah, so it's very varied. Violence. Love
Chris Bright 3:02
it. No, that's really cool. And I think it's very true that I think most people go to a Sunday service. And they just think it kind of just happens, and, and for many churches, it might just happen. And I think what's gonna be interesting today is working out the amount of work that needs to go into Sunday service, a planning preparation, because things don't just happen just by chance. And, and I know that there'll be many people that may be more in the Pentecostal line of things when we were were, you know, I go to your church, and we were a Pentecostal church. So we believe in, you know, the Holy Spirit enabling us, but we're still plans. And and so planning is a really important thing. And is there still a Holy Spirit thing? Yeah, maybe that's a good question to ask is just, maybe how would you balance that with, you know, because looking at, you know, we've got a programme. If you're running to, you've got to balance that between that and Spirit lead, how does that work for you?
Amy Jorden 4:00
That is a massive, theological question.
Chris Bright 4:04
I've just gone for it. It's fine. And it wasn't even in the notes either.
Amy Jorden 4:09
I think what you're right about so we are at one church, we are a Pentecostal church. And I think what defines us, as a Pentecostal church is I've heard somebody say before, it's like face on tiptoes. It's like this expectation, this anticipation to encounter God. So as a Pentecostal church, we believe that we can personally as individuals encounter the person of God and the person of the Holy Spirit. And so what we do in terms of our Sunday services is we call them encounter services at one church. So our Sundays are designed to help facilitate encounter with God. So it isn't just a programme for a programme sake, it's not just tradition or routine, but it's how Can we facilitate encounter with the presence of God. And so that runs through that runs through everything that we do. So our time of worship and the word and how we try and create atmosphere and remove distractions, and it feeds into every element, even things like, from time people enter the carpark, if there have been things that have not gone well for them in their journey, if they didn't find a space, or if somebody didn't greet them, I think all of those little things can become a distraction or like undermine the opportunity to encounter God. So we see, I think we see everything as working together to help facilitate that encounter. So it's not just the worship team's job to do that, or it's not just the preachers job to do that. But all of us together, are working to help create this atmosphere in this environment where people can encounter and I think the challenge is, how do we how do we facilitate spontaneity? Or how do we respond to what God's doing whilst having so at the moment, our services are an hour, so it's, it's tight, and we want to honour people's time, like, we want to respect people that have come out and given us their time. So we don't want to just go over by an extra 45 minutes every Sunday. So what we're learning is how we create margin in our services. So at the moment for us really, practically, that looks like we'll have like buffer time or response time or ministry time within our programmes so that we've got the things set in, whether it's preach worship, if we've got church news, or things that we need to communicate. But within that time, we have this buffer of ministry time where we can just respond to what God's doing and linger somewhere or move into something different. And so that's how we're trying to navigate that at the moment.
Chris Bright 6:59
Yeah, and you talked about it being called an encounter service. And I guess that fits with, you know, it gives you a clear goal that you're working towards an encounter. Is that Is that right?
Amy Jorden 7:11
Yeah, that's it. So I think, whether our goal is whether you are in church for the very first time, or if you've been in church forever, that you would encounter, the presence of God. And so for me, I'm really passionate about this, because I've been brought up in church. So I've been in church for 32 years, but still believed that I can encounter God. And there's because his mercies are new every morning, and he's always doing something new. And there's new things that we can learn about his character, we only ever scratched the surface of who he is. So all of us whether you are there for the first time or not, we can encounter God. And that's our aims, I think, again, the way that we design our services is, is to try and capture both or facilitate both. So if you are new, and you have no idea about face, it will still be accessible. Yet, for those that are have been in church forever. And there is like a, there is a depth to it. And yeah, it's something new for them as well. So we're trying to that is our goal that every person can encounter.
Chris Bright 8:20
And that's a tricky balance, isn't it? Because how do you, you know, how do you do something that's gonna work for a new person? And for someone that's going to be, you know, that's maybe been a Christian for, you know, five decades or something? Or is that? Is that tension you're having to manage? Or is that something that you find that that harmonises? Well, how we found that?
Amy Jorden 8:40
Um, again, good question. And I think, for us so recognising, I think we are recognising that church is more than our Sunday service. So we have pro so our discipleship pathway is encounter God grow personally and then go and make a difference. So we recognise that Sunday is about encounter. So it's about encountering the presence of God. But that won't necessarily be the place where you grow in terms of your theology and your knowledge and understanding of the Bible. So we provide other ways and other opportunities for that to happen. So we're not trying to make a Sunday the be all and end all but recognising that actually gross and depth happens in other in probably smaller circles that does rose to try to facilitate growth in other areas. Yeah, so I think when I'm preaching on a Sunday, it's, I'm trying to guess what what good teachers do and what I'm trying to aspire to be is that they can present complex concepts in a simple way so that the person who has an understanding of that is stretched, but it is accessible for those that are new so it simply that will look like I think, our worship leaders, if there's a bit of theology in a song that is a bit complex or might not make sense on the surface, they'll just bring a little bit of explanation to that. So, or if we, if we mentioned about the Holy Spirit, we just give a little bit of extra explanation for somebody that's new. And I think that's a way that we try and just make it inclusive for those that are new as well. So we don't shy away from a depth of theology. But we try and explain it. And we don't just assume that people know soteriology, or I don't know, yeah, whatever concepts that we're talking about to try and bring some kind of explanation to
Chris Bright 10:43
conclude. I think that's the, one of the issues with I think people worry sometimes that the churches, whenever you explain something, or if you try to make something understandable, then you kind of dumbing something down. But that doesn't sound like that's what you're trying to do. Because I think there's a difference between dumbing something down, and just making something that's complex, understandable. And I think there's, there's a big difference, how do you avoid the kind of dumbing down of things? How does that work for you?
Amy Jorden 11:17
I guess it's the way I see it is that you're dumbing down would be too diluted and watered down so that everybody can access it. But in my mind, what we're trying to achieve is we we set a say, set the bar high, but we have we communicate clearly, whether it's theology or our convictions, and then by explanation we're bringing others up, we're giving them some understanding so that they can access that. So we're not bringing we're not dumbing it down or bringing it down to a basic level, but we're helping to bring others up. If that makes sense.
Chris Bright 11:52
Yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense. Well, let's, let's change tack because you're you're planning services. And one church is a multi site church. So there's, we have four locations in in UK. Now, how that came about, was that one of those locations joined was it was a separate church that joined that and, and then that since part of the further location and Gloucester, where your base has planted a location, also in another area of Gloucester. So what challenges have you had bringing those Sunday services together? Because you got an interesting situation here, where it's not just what a church that's just planted from where is you've got a church that's joining in as well. Yeah, what what the challenge that you've had bringing that together and creating some kind of consistency.
Amy Jorden 12:41
So there have been, there have been some elements, which have been easily brought together and have a bit of continuity. So things like our preaching series have been something which have worked well together. So the way that we do our preaching series is that we get together monthly with a team of people and we have a representative from each location. So that we're we're working on the series together, we're speaking into it, we're bringing perspectives from the different locations, which means that we have, we have this collaborative approach to our preaching series. And that's worked really well. There have been other areas, which have been a little bit more challenging, I think, and especially when it's a location, which maybe has a little bit of their own way of doing things already. And it's already established, and worship something that we're still working on, and has brought more challenges because, because, like that a different location has been established, and they have a team and they have certain songs. So our journey, and the thing that we're navigating is how we can align together work together, so that we're not just being copycats of one another, but we are producing the same kind of sound and where we're singing the same kind of songs and and that's challenging, especially when we've got locations with maybe a few 100 people, and then locations with 30 people, for example. So I think, yeah, different elements have been easier to bring together than others preaching being easier for us and worship being something that we're still learning and growing in I think,
Chris Bright 14:23
yeah, and I so guess what makes me wonder is, how important is it for different locations to be uh, like, or same, you know, is sameness important? Or, like, you know, how is it? How important is it that each location looks the same? And and if that's the case, like, Why, or maybe why it is or why it isn't, you know, it will speak to that element of kind of sameness or a likeness what's, what's your thoughts around that?
Amy Jorden 14:55
Well, I think the heart behind conversations like this The what we love is to when you walk into any location, any one church location, it has the same feel it has the same culture. So even if it looks different, we have different setups, we have different buildings, some of them we rent some of them we own, even though it might look different, the different in size, that there there are certain things which feel familiar. And you recognise this is this is one term that whether it's like the sound in worship or whether it's our the way that we deliver and communicate the message and the word. So what we've tried to do is identify things that are centralised and things that then can be locally optimised. So things like our preaching series are more centralised. But the way that that then is communicated will be locally optimised. So a preacher will take that message and will translate it into their locations. So they'll be able to speak into certain issues or navigate any challenges that they know that that location is facing. So they can speak into it a little bit more clearly, things like our setlist are always different. But what we'd like to work towards is having a united song list. So having a centralised song list where if you walk into any of the one service locations, you recognise some of the songs is a big part of it feeling familiar or feeling like one church. So we're working towards having a bit more of a centralised song list. But the worship leaders can choose songs that the location need to sing that Sunday, and they might know of pastoral issues, or they might know of what God is doing right in a moment that they can use songs then to speak into that. So I think we've tried to identify areas where we want to try and be a little bit more aligned and central to things that can just have flexibility and a bit more autonomy. Yeah, trying to navigate that. And I guess that'd be a constant. That'd be a constant challenge. But what's great is that, first and foremost, I think that we have this coat, we have a similar culture in all of our locations. And that from that point, that's where we can work out all of the different elements.
Chris Bright 17:25
I hope you found on the kind of the personal side, how have people taken to maybe starting to bring things more together. And that's not just one location looking like the original location. But everyone starting to change? How have people adapted to that change? Have you noticed? Has it been a difficult thing? Have you had difficult conversations? How's that worked?
Amy Jorden 17:47
Um, yeah, I think there have been challenges with it. So I think it can be easy if you've got, if you've got your own way of doing things it can be, it can be a challenge, then to try and to change that. So if you've got a way that works for your location, and then you certainly have to include different thoughts or opinions, of course, it makes it more challenging. Just like any working with people is always challenging. So, but challenging doesn't mean that it's bad. And I think what we've recognised is that even though what's been great is that everybody has been willing to engage with that tension and wrestle through it. Recognising that, actually, if we can work this out, it's going to be a positive thing. Because we can support one another, we can gain ideas, we're richer for it when we work with each other. So it hasn't always been easy. And we've had to have some tough conversations. And we've had to have, we've had to negotiate or compromise in different areas, whether it's in terms of our style or preference, but knowing that we're we're better for it, and where we're better when we're working together. So again, it comes back to that culture being key in that, I think, because without that culture that makes it, it does make it really challenging.
Chris Bright 19:07
You mentioned some of the tensions that arise. And I can imagine one of the tensions that you'd have planning is that, you know, we have one location, which is a lot larger than the three others. And so we've got, you know, there's a tension now between large and small, how do you manage that tension? How do you How can you create consistency when you got one one area that's which is a larger congregation, one area, there's a smaller congregation? So larger services, smaller services? How do you do that and still create consistency when it's when they when they look very different in terms of their size and you walk into a you know, you're walking into a small room or you're walking into a large room or a large hall? They can be that's very different atmospheres. How do you create consistency there?
Amy Jorden 19:52
Yeah, again, I think the key thing is identifying coach more than the practicality so the practical He's on the focus, but the culture is. So we're not trying to copy the way that we do things because like you said, the way that it will work for one location won't necessarily be the same for another. But what we want is so for example, if the way that we do guest services functions differently, so instead of our smaller locations, they can have breakfast together and like, gather around that they've got a space where they can do that and create this amazing environment of community. And even though we can't do that, in our bigger locations, how do we capture what we want is that sense of genuine communities? So how do we create that with the limitations that we've got, and a big thing for us has been how we've defined excellence, because I think everybody has different standards, everybody has different limitations. So when we all have different opinions of what is excellent, and we can place that upon place the same expectation upon all of our locations. So what we've done is, as a church, we have defined excellence, as bringing your best possible to whatever it is. So bringing your best possible to Guest Services team bringing your best possible to worship. And so then we've got a great measurement of Okay, did you bring your best possible today? Yes, then this was an excellent Sunday, because of that it wasn't excellent because of the elements that were involved, necessarily. But I think that's really helped us knowing that then it can look different. But we're still pursuing the same, like the same culture and the same feel in the same environment, even though there's elements are different.
Chris Bright 21:48
I think that's really helpful, because excellence is a really arbitrary thing. But there's been such a movement in the church in the last 20 years, I think, once since the rise of the mega churches in, you know, what I guess it would have been in the 80s, where it started, but, you know, prominence in the 90s, and then into the early 2000s, the excellence became a thing where people continually striving for something, and I think it's become a bit of a red herring, probably not the right term, but it's, it's become something that we're so striving after that almost takes the place of what we're really trying to achieve sometimes. And so I think having an explanation of, of excellence that we can all actually capture, because I think before, I've been in church services, where we talked, you know, we talked about, we want it to be excellent, but no one can actually ever define what excellence is, is it like, what standard? Does that have to be? You know, so? Is that something that you still wrestle against? Where people, you know, they've got their own definition of what excellence is, you know, are you still wrestling against? Well, unless it looks like this church or that church or, or against this standard in industry standards or something like that? What? How do you how'd you kind of turn that culture so that, you know, it is to the, you know, the bringing the best possible rather than going, Okay, it's gonna look like Hillsong or something like that?
Amy Jorden 23:12
Yeah, I think it's gonna be a constant challenge, because we're working with people. And every individual will have a different perspective of when they've reached excellence. And hopefully, as soon as you reach that, there'll be another level then. So we've never really, we'll never settle and nothing will ever be, like, good enough that we can just quit. But what we've tried to do is, I think something that helps is looking into what we measure our Sundays with. So with our encounter services, we have metrics that the location pastors will feed back on each Sunday, and they're all the same. So across the locations, we're looking for key results, the same things from a Sunday. So things like how many new did you have new people in your service? Did you have people respond to the gospel in your service? Was it technically Excellent? Was it well produced was the sound quality, good things like things like that, that we're aligning together on so that even though we all have different opinions on what constitutes excellence, together, we're feeding back on the same things and and that helps us then to look out for the same things and we're constantly answering how many people responded to the Gospel. If it's regularly zero, then actually, what do we need to do to just help change that? And is it the way that we're communicating that is it that we're not getting new guests in? And I think that's been really helpful to clarify that too. Yeah. Like you said, it can be something that accidents can be something that's so conceptual. For us having metrics that we're feeding back on each Sunday helps just to ground it a little bit more.
Chris Bright 25:05
Well, thank you so much for listening to this week's podcast. This is only halfway through the podcast, and you can listen to the full conversation by joining our members podcast. Just go to our website, www dot thinking dot church and you can sign up to our members podcast there. It only costs the price of one coffee per month so it's well worth doing. So why not get a coffee, listen to the podcast and learn something new. We'll see you again for this podcast next week. So bye for now.
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