Chris Bright 0:06
Welcome to the thinking church podcast with me, Chris bright. Every week, I'll be speaking with a church leader about ministry strategy and getting to grips with not just what they do, but the thinking behind why they do it. So without further ado, let's get on with the show. Well, my guest today is Adam leg. Adam is the activity and faith leader for sports league, which is run by the Diocese of Gloucester, in the Church of England. So, Adam, it's great to have you on on the podcast today. Thanks for joining me.
Adam Legge 0:41
Thanks. Nice to be with you, Chris.
Chris Bright 0:43
Well, let's start with was forcefully because you've just started working with sportily. And I think probably the best best thing to work out is there's something called sportily something to do with the Church of England, what actually is supposedly that's how does it all work?
Adam Legge 1:01
So sportily or the Diocese of Gloucester, if we go back there initially, there was an initial project called psalms that started in Payne's Rick Stroud area, that was basically taking sport and using that as the, the tool and the language in which to engage with children, young people, and, and come and talk to them about faith and ask some of the big questions that we have in life. The Diocese of Gloucester, when Bishop Rachel came in, she kind of identified Psalms is one of those fantastic projects that is really doing something different, but also is getting results in children, young people and shaping different children, young people. So she's identified that as one of the areas in which to invest in to grow. And so what then happened was, the diocese created a kind of like a separate charity, under a working title of one life, and merged with psalms and Psalms came as part of that with a lot of support from Scripture union. And, and a couple of staff from there. And, and, and then we have this thing called sportily. So after doing branding exercises to work out what was the right name for it? We've landed on sportily. So sportily sans was our heritage and sports really is our is our future radiant, where we head into.
Chris Bright 2:31
So So what how does sports what what's what's actually involved in that? So what's the kind of what's it look like? You know, if you're going to be interact with it on a sort of day to day basis as it work?
Adam Legge 2:43
Yeah, so sports has got different hubs in different areas. So I myself, I'm based out of a little little village and in the forest, the dean, but that's a that's kind of a new killer hub. So it's a Christian adventure centre there, where I'm based out of and then engages with a wider community. We've got other other workers who are based out of Gloucester, based out of Cheltenham, Stroud Painswick, different kinds of areas in and around Gloucestershire. And what sportily does, is it partners with local schools, and looks to kind of look at how do we engage with children, young people through school, through sport, sometimes that will be through the delivering some of the key lessons that schools are struggling to deliver, sometimes delivering after school clubs. And that's kind of one line of what sportily does. Another line of was fourthly does is then engage kind of in what we'd say, Twilight session, so things after school, and kind of go is something separate from school, but yet the report has been built by the workers in their way of engaging with, with children, young people of schools. And then there's a kind of another part where it's just ongoing and invitations to other aspects. So that might be residentials. That might be kind of ongoing projects that they're supposed to be hosting. And so we have that kind of that that initial starting point. And then what we are moving towards is, is how we develop worshipping communities in and around it. Sports leading, right. So it's recognising that for some people, they're not going to be able to, to walk into what we call a classic or traditional church. And I mean, that not just Anglican, but say, Pentecostal, Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, those kind of established church services. That's not where some people would find themselves a home but they still have some sort of faith that they're trying to explore. And so, using something like sportily, as the as the vehicle in which we can explore some of those questions, explore some of those things. Is, is the opportunity that we we have in these new worshipping communities or new? Yeah, worshipping groups?
Chris Bright 5:03
Yeah. And I think so I was privileged to be able to go to your commissioning service, and was really great. And you know, we're also outside in the rain, I think in true sort of the style of I think how sports is gonna be run, it's very outdoorsy. And it was great. I loved it actually. Really, really good. And I think one of the things that really stood out for me was that this seems to be like, like you said, it's starting to find new, worshipping communities. So where does it sit at the moment? And maybe Is there is there a long term aim to try and create new? Is it new churches? Is it a new, just a brand new way of doing church? What's the kind of the the end goal with it?
Adam Legge 5:47
So what I'm always I'm always a bit nervous about kind of saying, we're going to create a new church, I think that we're not there to, to replicate, or we're not there to steal people from existing churches. I love the local church. I'm part of the local church, and I believe in the power of a local church and local community. And a community of believers, I think what we are looking to do is to go, how do we gather some of these, these people that have a faith, that they may not be able to articulate what that faith is? And kind of go on this journey with them and go, How do we do this Christian faith is not about religious exercise. It's about empowering a relationship with Jesus Christ and empowering that worshipping community. I think back a little bit to some of my work previously, where I was working in western diocese as a mission enabler. And one family in particular, just their their story kind of broke me a little bit is that they couldn't find a place where they felt that they could call home, in terms of church in what we would possibly know as plastic church. But they would go around every single Messy Church around the town and surrounding areas every month, because that's where their children who had a number of behavioural problems or issues or quirks felt that they could be because they weren't tatted up. They weren't looked at when their son had an outburst. They just felt like they were at home. And so for me, I think, where do Where does someone like that? Who wants to explore that faith? Where do they fit in? And I think somewhere around sports leaders, and some of the things that we're exploring is some of those, those landing points for people. That doesn't mean that they don't necessarily be in sports, leave for a little bit of time, and then go into something more established in church, or likewise, we may also gain some people who are from the established church and go, Okay, actually, this is more something that I feel aligned to. But the intention is not to create a church for church believers, or people who believe in churches, it's for people who want to explore faith, but don't feel don't feel settled in, in what is already there. In their church work.
Chris Bright 8:18
Yeah. And I think that makes sense. Because, you know, church, church attendance is declining overall, in the UK. And I think we need to find new ways of doing things. And I think maybe, you know, we've got a very, we've got an established way of doing church with the Church of England and other denominations as well of how church works. And I think I was talking to someone actually at your commissioning, who said that it kind of that kind of church only works with a couple of, you know, Myers Briggs, who refer to the Myers Briggs personalities, it only works with a couple of those kind of personalities got to be in, it's kind of almost like a very narrow band, and there's all these other kind of people that just experience life in a different way. And, and that kind of church or church service doesn't quite work for them. So it seems like this is starting to try and explore. Okay, how can we do this? How can we do something entirely different? Maybe, you know, let's get outdoors. Yeah, let's let's do something entirely different, but keep that element of faith. So I guess maybe I'm, you know, how necessary Do you think that is that you know, that we've got to kind of tear up that rulebook and start something new. Is it Are we having to find now do you think the church needs to find brand new ways of doing church? different from how it was done before?
Adam Legge 9:40
Great question. Great, great. ponderings I am always struck when you go to say a one of those Victorian reenactment places and you know, there's a couple around the country. But when you go into say, the sweet shop, it's like oh, you You're the sweet shop and these were made from cockroach blood, or whatever. And then you go into the kind of like the, the pub, and it's got like sawdust on the floor. And you're like, Okay, this is old school, isn't it? And then you go into the school, and you're kind of shouted at and stood in tables and in lines, and you kind of think, well, my kids school is very much not like this, because there's colour and brightness everywhere. And then you go into the church or the chapel. And you go, actually, this is very similar to what I'm used to, or this is very similar to how it still is. And you think that in all of those other situations, you know, like the education setting has progressed over the years, and rightly so. The the sweet shop has progressed into supermarkets, rightly or wrongly, but yet the church hasn't progressed in a way that is necessarily noticeable. And yes, there will be churches that have replaced organs with electric guitars. And there will be churches that have replaced stained glass windows with flashy lights. And there'll be churches that have replaced incense with smoke machines. But that's not necessarily progression. That's a that's, well, it's probably a progression on the same concept, rather than sort of going, what is the itch that our community and our society has? And where do we provide that itch. And so when you're starting to look at, I don't like the term, tear up the playbook or tear up the rulebook or whatever, because there's so much good stuff that we take from our heritage, and our traditions, and we look backwards. But we also need to look forward and go, What is the two that we can be looking backwards with, but what is the things that we can be looking forwards to engage with as well, you know, online churches is a is an area that we need to kind of move into. I even think about, kind of, yes, we're using sport as one of our main ways of engaging, but esport and how do we engage with that, and I've got a friend who is kind of on the cutting liners as kind of gaming curate, look him up on Twitch, but doing some amazing stuff with people as a explicit Christian in a gaming world, who suddenly is having these like, pretty, pretty serious chats with people who would never meet in person. And it is an international ministry, so to speak, and, you know, that's, he is he's, he's connecting in a different way. So yeah, I think, I think where we're where we're at, is, it's it's not necessarily it doesn't have to be radically different. But I think the attitudes have to be radically different of people. And maybe we need to unlearn what our definitions of worship are, or what our definitions of prayer life is, and, and kind of go well, could we pray in a slightly different way that is more inclusive? Does it need to be one person at the front pray and we all say AMEN At the end or when it becomes everyone pray out in in kind of like loud voices is that a bit weird for people who've never been to church before? And so there's and worship as well, like worship, there's some, it should be an act that connects you with God. And if you are connected to God, by being in his nature and his creation, and that draws you back, how do you capture that moment of all and go, this is a moment of worship. So there's a lot of thinking to be done. And, and maybe some of this kind of the things that I'm getting at is I don't fully have the answers yet. And that's okay. Because we are on this journey of kind of exploring pioneering adventure maybe a little bit of maverick Enos as an organisation which is quite exciting to be on the front foot.
Chris Bright 14:23
Yeah, definitely exciting and I think probably like it's almost that let's just chase that thought down about you know, okay, let's, let's put ourselves in different worlds and maybe sports is a great place to start with it. And I think you know, okay, how can worship be different How can preach be different or let's just tear it up, not tear it up completely. But let's rethink those elements entirely. So like, like you said, about worship is in may not be singing it could be out in nature and discussing the wonder of God in you know, in scientific terms or in other terms. Is there any Other thoughts that your your thinking around that in terms of, of how that could look in, you know, taking, taking this the sacredness of what we've always had, you know, you know, worship and hearing from the word but now it's it's the setting is completely changed and even some of the practices have changed, but the essence still remains. Is there any, any further thoughts you've got on those?
Adam Legge 15:22
Yeah, I think it's a much, much and much of the Christian faith was about for me is about meeting people where they're at, and inviting them into that journey. And the more you reflect, and the more I think about Jesus, Jesus didn't, didn't hand out a pamphlet to say, Come to our care or service at the synagogue. Jesus didn't kind of go or come to this service. And we've got this really good speaker come in. Jesus just stepped into the messiness of people's lives and sat and air and dined and laughed and joked and cried, and he was very active in people's lives. And so maybe, maybe part of this new revenue revolution of what church is, is modern day ministry, missionaries, going into people's lives, in amongst the mess, the hurt, the joy, the beauty, the moments of Thanksgiving, the moments of grief, and kind of being very present and holding in the presence of God in those places. And whether that is in nature, whether that's in the middle of a mugger, in in the middle of an estate that the police basically send riot vans into, because that's the only way that those police are going to get in and out. Or maybe it's in the, in the changing rooms before a football match. That's, that's where I think it becomes a little bit more innovative, pioneering, exciting.
Chris Bright 17:06
Yeah, I think it's kind of capturing that the the essence of Jesus with the woman at the well, where it's, it's out on the road, is out, you know, where people are, is capturing those things. You know, there's, you know, Jesus also gathered crowds, and the early church got the crowds, but they early church was so out and about, and I think having this, there's this jewel aspect to it, you know, that the early church met in the temple courts, and they knew where they were, they knew where people were, and they went to whether the people gathered, and, but also they were out in the community, and they were out doing, you know, their meeting home to home. And I think that there's this this, this is aspect where if we can, if we can understand what it means to start communities, you know, actually out out in the world, as it were, you know, out like, like in a in a field or, you know, a sports field or something like that on a football pitch. Wherever people gather, there's a great opportunity to start some kind of community, it seems. Yeah. Okay, well, what kind of, let's think about the kind of maybe the mental shifts that churches need to take. We often the church talks about getting outside the four walls. And but what needs to what do you think needs to change in our thinking, if we're going to start thinking, you know, instead of thinking maybe bring just about bringing people to our church, but but actually getting out there? And maybe, to start, like thinking differently, to be able to go, Okay, we're going to try something that's never been tried before? And what needs to shift and I thinking?
Adam Legge 18:43
I wonder, I wonder whether it's not about thinking but whether the church is fully equipped, and I say the church being the people in the church. And so there's that, I think there's that, that element of maybe in the last, kind of, in the last for the last couple 100 years, that because we've had a paid minister, they're the professional, they're the specialists, they know what to do. So if we bring up people we bring our wounded to the pastor or the vicar they're fixing. And actually, we are not equipped to tell our story. And if you are a Christian, and you have a Christian faith, you've had a life encounter with Jesus that has transformed your life in some form or some way How are you are you then equipped to communicate that to somebody? And so I think that we we aren't equipped to tell that story. We're not equipped to kind of say, how Jesus has shaped or or changed our lives. And so I think if we start to if this Church was more equipped in telling that. And then the church as a whole was more equipped in seeing people as seeing its congregation as modern day missionaries that go into their families, their work their areas of influence, to tell their story and to tell how Jesus makes a difference in their life. That's when we start to see a shift and a change in, in those small little worlds. But those small little worlds intertwine quite quickly. And they bump up against each other. You know, what? One of the my co workers has always kind of, always sort of said, to me, it's like, I've got I had some friends at university, and I, you know, I thought, thought long and hard about it about how to invite them to church. And I did. And I said, Oh, no, no, we're already part of church. And, like, what, you're really good, how are you part of church and like, we play for this church football team, that that's our church, we play with this, as a son, for those guys, they were connected in with a church, they're connected in with faith, but they were just in that small little sphere of, of influence that they had been started to be shaped by Christians, they'd started to change some of their attitudes towards or their life views and their worldviews. They started a journey, I don't know fully where they're at with that journey. But, you know, that's without sounding too, kind of like, our whatever will be will be, we do have to do have to trust that God has put people in in the right place at the right time to kind of shape some of those journeys that people go on. But I mean, if we don't, if we aren't not bold as the Christian congregations, modern day Miss missionaries, who can go into those places into the places where we have influence and sphere, that we are not going to shape those. Those people, we're not going to have those conversations that were and as I said earlier, Harold, in the presence of God, be there to invite Jesus into situations, offered to pray, and then to actually pray with that person not just offered a prayer and then walk away and go, Yeah, I'll do it tonight, between eight o'clock and 885. Is it's being in those moments and being brave enough to ask God into those situations and being humble enough to step back and, and let God work.
Chris Bright 22:37
Yeah, so I mean, I'm in I'm fascinated by that thought of, you know, the people at the university that says, I've already got a church because I go to the football club, and like, how can we take that one step further. So maybe, you know, there are people that have they've, you know, they're maybe doing something like a, they've got a football, you know, playing football every week, and they've got people coming along? How can that go from just a group of people playing football? And you talked about allowing God into those moments that is there? What intentional things can we do to start turning that into more of, I think, faith? Yes, I
Adam Legge 23:13
think it's more of an attitude shift. And to necessarily not to see people as commodities that go through a factory programme, and kind of go, Okay, well, our discipleship journey must look like this. And so someone has to have an interaction, they then have to come along, and maybe they belong to a community for a while, and then they may believe, and they go into kind of like, some kind of, yeah, Revelation moment where they put their hand up, because a preacher has asked them to, it's about recognise it, it's, I don't fully have the answers. Because this is journeying. This is pioneering. This is Maverick work, that lots of people are doing up and down the country and lots of churches are wrestling with. But it is about kind of just stepping back a little bit and kind of going well, if this person is in the faith is on a faith journey, how do I support them in this moment in time, so that is that is cumbersome, in the sense that that means that you as the Christian friend need to make time to journey with that person. And to explore what that looks like. It means that you have to be present with them that you can't there is there was intentionality about it. Because it's, it's too easy to kind of go you know, let's just put you into a programme. And as great as some of the programmes are like alpha is fantastic. And there's other things like that which are fantastic. Is it it? Is we just we just need to think about the personal bit on that as well because you know, we're scripture union uses a kind of a figure of 95% of children, young people are not engaged with church at the moment. It 95% That's a huge number. That gives us almost like a, I don't know, a rallying call to go that we can do something. But that journey is not necessarily to put someone into a programme, that journey is to journey with them. And to kind of try and go, Well, where does what does this God look like to you at this moment in time? What does this Jesus look like to you? How do how does that? How does that work? How does that fit in with life, and there'll be moments where we, as the mature Christian, suddenly just need to go, wow, that is amazing. I've never viewed God in that way you are giving me revelation that it becomes a two way process. It isn't a mentor relationship. It is a peer to peer learning off each other. But there will be moments where, you know, you do need to kind of go, Ah, I don't think that what you mean by that is really what the Bible says. But this is let's explore that together. Let's open the Bible. Let's talk about it. Let's pray about it. You know, and that's yeah, that's that's some of that journey part I think of being missional.
Chris Bright 26:35
Well, thank you so much for listening to this week's podcast. This is only halfway through the podcast, and you can listen to the full conversation by joining our members podcast, just go to our website, www dot dot church and you can sign up to our members podcast. It only costs the price of one coffee per month, so it's well worth doing. So why not get a coffee, listen to the podcast and learn something new. We'll see you again for this podcast next week. So bye for now.
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