Chris Bright 0:06
Welcome to the thinking church podcast with me, Chris bright. Every week, I'll be speaking with a church leader about ministry strategy, and getting to grips with not just what they do, but the thinking behind why they do it. So without further ado, let's get on with the show. Well, my podcast guest today is Nathan Jordan. Nathan is the online pastor at one church, which is based in the southwest of England, they've got four campuses or locations in Southwest and three in Zimbabwe as well. That church is also my church, which is boys a cool thing to have. Nathan is also one of my very, very best friends. So it's absolutely brilliant to have Nathan on the podcast today, Nate. So great to see you,
Nathan Jorden 0:53
too, Chris. Thank you for having me. The best friend sentiment is mutual. And Mel complement, your setup your microphone, your bookshelf behind you. It's great to be here.
Chris Bright 1:06
Well, the bookshelf. So I was, I was doing a podcast a few weeks ago with Sam Hales, who's the who's the editor of Premier Christianity magazine. And he also commented on the bookshelf. And he actually could see specific books in there. And however, if I was to look at my bookshelf, you know, it has. So he saw this one, which is the ruthless elimination of hurry, which is behind my microphone, right by John Mark comer. But the only thing you really can see is this book, which is wing night, which is something I've really got into. So that's the one that you often people might be able to see, but less about my bookcase and more about getting into conversation, probably as much as maybe we should have a whole what's on Chris's bookshelf. conversation at some point, but I think that's probably best for another day. We're going to talk about online church today. And Nathan, I really want to speak with you because I think speaking with someone who has got first hand experience on launching an online campus, I think seeing what you've worked through what you've been through how it's worked out with the things you're wrestling with working out, there are going to be things that I really want to dive into today. So let's kind of get into this. So you've just, we've just launched the online location, you just launched it, and it started in September. And we're recording this in November 2021. What was when you first started? When you were given this role? What was the remit that you were given by your senior leader?
Nathan Jorden 2:46
Yeah. So I think at that time in September 2021, where we were as a church was probably where many churches across the world were. And that is we were we were broadcasting our live services. Back, beginning of the pandemic, everyone was forced into that space, weren't they like, whatever you thought about doing church and online space, we're all forced there to either do notice at all or take it online. So we took all of our services online, we had some degree of preparedness for that, like, because we were planning on heading in that direction. We were nowhere near as prepared as potentially we would like to have been. But some amazing volunteers and great team here helped us get online and keep our church engaged. And that was a wonderful time. And we were at this moment where the UK was opening up again. We were returning to in person services. And faced with this choice, like what is church look like? Now, in that virtual space? Do we do we continue with this bit of a hybrid where we invited people into the room broadcasting that online? Or and then this was the conversation the decision? Do we go fully commit to in person services, and also do something that's completely designed for and bespoke to an online space. And we chose that so senior pastor, Pastor Simon alley, they spoke to me and my wife, and they asked us to take on one church online and to launch an online campus. And the idea was, this wouldn't be something where we were just showing what was happening in one of our locations. But it would be an online church designed for people to gather virtually, and grow in the face in an online context. So that's what it wants to launch a location in and of its own right, in September.
Chris Bright 4:38
That's, that's really cool. I'm really interesting. You know, I think every church recognises that, you know, when the pandemic hit, we all suddenly became an online church. And then I think that question was going to be looming forever. And in terms of we know that at some point, this is going to end we know that when we get to the point where things could open up, back up, what we're going to Do then I think early on in the pandemic, we were everyone was in this, it's going to be online forever. And then we probably went into that kind of law, which is we hate online, and we wish that it would all just go away. And then at some point, you know, it just kind of goes through that to some point where it's going hang on it, we still recognise that this is important. And but what are we going to do? And and I think, working that journey out in terms of what's right for, for your use a church, that's, that's something that's got to be worked through. And but I think everyone intrinsically understands that it online is here to stay, it feels like that debate is now is now kind of settled for me. But how would you? How would you launch something like that? And maybe what would be good to hear from you is, what kind of resources did you have? Starting with what you know, did you don't have to give a mountain sort of like you're given this pot of money? But what were the kind of initial ingredients that you had to start with?
Nathan Jorden 5:59
Yeah, good question. So it's a fascinating time as well. So so for me and my wife, like we, we never want to do stuff in isolation, you never want to have a crack at something alone. Like we, what we love about the church community is the community part. And I'm getting to build church, one of the joys of it is doing it with other people. So like, we were really keen from the outset to like, get some people around us that we could journey this thing through with and to launch the online location with. But as you say, we've all been through this stage of kind of hate it a little bit. Are we not done with zooms? And are we not done with watching a screen to do church. And as people were really excited about getting back into the buildings, there was where we were trying to galvanise some support for launching an online location. So that was really fascinating. And, and so I think, for us to try and build a team and to invite some people on board, we had to figure out, like, What the Why was, and not to sell it to people. But why this was something that would be a good thing to be a part of, and the exciting opportunities that came with it. And that will come as I'm sure we'll get into. Because I think in the back of a lot of people's minds were like, well, that's great. But I'm looking forward to getting back into building again, or I'm looking forward to churches, I've known it, like why would we continue in like double down on doing something in online space. So we didn't, we didn't start with a team, there wasn't like a pre made preset team that we're gonna go with us we have to go out and, and connect with some people to join us in the process. And, you know, we're super grateful for the people that have decided to join us for the Church Online journey. So a small group of people have joined the team. And and figuring that out as well, that team dynamic is fascinating. Because there's not a clear set structure of roles just yet. But effectively, again, we'll get into this, we ask people to join us, not really knowing where we're going, what it's going to look like what it's going to contain. But can you be a part of this adventure, and people have practically what we've had, and what we've acquired is one camera, some lights, some some mics, which we already had. And we're really fortunate again, because like many other churches been forced into the online space, we picked up some kit in that window of time as well, which we're we're using. But we've gone for really basic setup, one camera, one light. And the idea was we want to make something that's quite portable, and can be taken anywhere so that we're not dictated or locked down to an area to film and capture some of the stuff that we're producing our content. But yeah, that's uh, did you just fire off a message and Chris slightly?
Chris Bright 8:43
I did. Yeah, someone is calling me to pick up our vacuum cleaner.
Nathan Jorden 8:49
I'm very easily distracted. I'm sorry, I just heard about what they
Chris Bright 8:52
were doing that won't go off. And we promised to lend our friends vacuum vacuum cleaner, and I just got through, I was worried that they would turn up and be hoping to see a vacuum cleaner and what they'd be presented with would be me halfway through podcasts. So just say I'm mid recording a podcast, I will get back to you with the vacuum cleaner in a bit. So there we are. That was the message so I know. Full full disclosure. There we are.
Nathan Jorden 9:27
You checked your watch you check your phone and then find the message on your laptop, I believe so I'm glad we've clarified that
Chris Bright 9:33
that is exactly what happens. Yes. I mean, I don't know how we're gonna get back into online church. Now. Now right? But now we're talking about technology about it's because I'm clearly just showing that I'm one of those you know, the watch and the phone and the computer all synced up and they can all do things and distracted what we can do. Well that's the thing. I'm also is important to say that whilst you're speaking, the camera's not on me so that no one knows Is any of this anyway?
Nathan Jorden 10:02
Caught you out? I'm glad.
Chris Bright 10:05
Amazing. All right. Well, you were talking about the why of online tuition, you know, talking to the team that you've, you know, asked to join. And you said, you isn't really important to get into that. Why? So what was the why for you? Why, why is online church important? I'd love to pick up on that kind of idea.
Nathan Jorden 10:26
Yeah, so I want to be honest, like, because my wife and I were, we're passionate about connecting with people and helping people grow in their faith and meet Jesus. And the phrase where people people is what we are. And so when Simon and Ollie did ask us that it wasn't without this hint within us of Yeah, but we want to be with people. And and that does a pursuit over online community is that going to feel quite cold and removed, and I'll begin to feel isolated in that journey. And so, in the build up to launching the week before we launched, I won't go into the full journey. But someone that I know, ended up watching one of our online services that we were when we were broadcasting our services in from Gloucester location, and got saved gave his life to Jesus messaged me after and decided, Hey, I've committed my life to Jesus, what do I do now. And this person has been since watched every week and connected with church online. And for me, there's this the wonderful idea that the why behind it is there are people out there still, that perhaps they won't walk into our buildings, they won't make the journey in the car to come to a church that maybe they're not familiar with, or know anyone in. But there are people that desperately need to find the hope that we have in Jesus, and they, they need that relationship with God. And I firmly believe that God can use any vessel vehicle, and any means to get that message out there and to connect people, with him, to reconcile people back to Himself. And we saw that the week before we launched, there was this real validating moment where that gentleman got saved, gave his life to Jesus. And for me, the why is ultimately that people would meet God, they'd meet Jesus through it. And they find a space where they can explore questions. As I said, that person has been connected in further watching most weeks, we'll talk about what that looks like in terms of a rhythm. But we do an online growth group, as we call it, which is a space we can meet with like minded people and grow in your faith, and they've been connected in there. So the why is that people would find Jesus and grow in their relationship with him. And I firmly I am sold out on the idea that this medium is a way that that can happen for people that won't necessarily walk into our physical spaces. Yeah,
Chris Bright 12:49
I was. I've been, I've been saying this to a number of people, I've been writing a blog, like, it's a very long blog, essentially, it's a blog series through the book of Acts. And I wrote one just last week, and it's based on Acts chapter five notes after the Ananias and Sapphira passage, which is really difficult to write about. But after that, it talks about how they would gather in the temple courts. So in Solomon's colonies, and really, you know, if you're, if you're thinking about the city of Jerusalem, if you're going to find a place where people are going to gather, the temple is pretty much like, that's the, that's the place you're gonna go for. So they're gathering at the point where the crowds are gathering. And so let's think about that for today. How does that translate for us? Well, where where are the crowds gathering, and they're great, they're gathering online, you know, they're on Facebook, they're on Twitter, they're on YouTube, they're on all of these places. Now, obviously, they're in physical places, as well, as you know, they're going to shopping centres, and they're going to those kinds of places as well, you know, that, that that's still important, and we don't want to lose that. But they, but when you think about online, we've got to be in the place, wherever, wherever people gather, we need to find a place that we can be there. And I think that that's, you know, you what you say about that, why being and you just want people to meet with Jesus. And if you want people to meet with Jesus, you kind of got to go go out, we talk about kind of going outside of the church walls. And and online is a great way of being able to, to do that. For, you know, for churches to be able to, you know, to go into that sphere, where people are, where they're gathering, and meet with them. And it's kind of the new public square, really, you know, whereas people used to go to public square and debate topics. Now they're going to Twitter or they're going to Facebook and they're talking about issues of life and things
Nathan Jorden 14:39
like that. Yeah, exactly that.
Chris Bright 14:42
Well, let's get into the next part. If we've looked at the why a big topic of online church is, who is it for? Because and that's not an easy question, because there's a number of different options here. Is it for? Is it for the person Who can't come along to church? Because they've got COVID? Or they're ill? Or is it for the person who doesn't know Jesus? Or is it for? There could be a number of loads of different kinds of people that it could be for? Is it for someone that doesn't want to come to church that used to come to church, and just really likes, you know, sitting on their sofa and watching church or sitting in bed and watching church? So how did you define the who and what, what? Who did you find it as who and how did you come to that conclusion?
Nathan Jorden 15:32
Yeah, very good. And you're right, there's so many variables, I think, that are linked to the time that we're in this weird time, where we've been in this global pandemic, and how people have attended their churches is just been radically changed. And people's ideas of what it means to be part of a church community has been massively shaken and changed and redefined, I think, for many. So I think where we're at right now, we are comfortable with this idea that we can exist in a bit of a tension attention between, like our ideal target market versus who's actually watching because we're aware that there are people that are still a little bit nervous to come into a building. And they're still a little bit uncomfortable with the idea of being in a room filled with 100 turns of people 50 people, wherever it might be. So we didn't want to completely ignore the reality of the time that we're in. So and that's informed our tone and our presentation a little bit. So what we've done is we've broken it down, there's like three people that it's for that we've imagined, like one is people that don't know Jesus. Two is for people that are looking for a new church communities to be a part of, and they could be new to faith, or it could be Christians for a while. And then three, and this is in ranking order as well. Three, it's for people that can't make it to a space that maybe are already part of our one church community. And for whatever reason, it works shifts, or as I said, they're not comfortable with the idea of coming back in or health is preventing them, it's for them as well. But really, in terms of prioritisation, it's those are the heard Jesus. Second, it's those that wants to join a new community that aren't yet part of. And then third is those that are already part of our church community. But for whatever reason, can't be into a space. So that's the who it's for. And we try our best to let that inform our tone of what we say and the things that we emphasise and how we explain things. If it were the other way around, for example, then there might be a little bit more in speak and speaking to our people, and as you know, it's this. We tried to avoid that and make it as accessible as possible that to people that don't know, Jesus. And that may be new to a church context as well.
Chris Bright 17:42
And I guess if you're, if you're starting from that point of why, you know, why are you doing this, we want people to meet Jesus, then who it's for, of course, you'll go, Well, we're doing it for primarily people that don't know Jesus, because we want people to meet Jesus. And so I think that there's a lovely kind of through line there, that really works. Because now you can, you can say, Look, we're doing it for this. And, and also, that means that you can work out who you're not doing it for is not the you know, but like I said, there's, there's a secondary order now this, this will be fine. You know, if you're, if you're ill at home, or you can't make it to church, you can still watch and it'll still be absolutely fine for you. But it's not going to be primarily to you. It's primarily to someone that doesn't know Jesus, but you'll still get really great benefit out of it. Have you had any kind of pushback on that in terms of art I thought this was supposed to be from, you know, for me, and they realise it's not kind of for me, how have you found that's landed with the people that are watching?
Nathan Jorden 18:45
Yeah, it's to be honest, no pushback or questioning in that regard. And I think our our aim, and intention is to arrive at that point. So it's more of a direction of travel, as I said, in this attempt to be sensitive to the time that we're in. So I imagine more and more, we are going to be attempting to push the boat out, try new things, be innovative, and try and reach people. Whereas in our startup that to begin, as we launched, we we were aware that there are a lot of people that will be watching this that are part of our web search community. And we didn't want to completely alienate them. We'll make it clear, hey, this isn't viewed you should be in a room. You should be back in the building. Like we we want it to be sensitive to that. So to answer your question, yeah, no, no pushback yet. I mean, we've, we've had trolls that's been fun.
Chris Bright 19:44
I get lots of I get the trolls with we're thinking church I've had. It's really interesting because there's for a few of the podcasts, I put out adverts specifically. And this you know, we can get into this with how you target if you want to reach people Then you've got to do some Facebook ads as a big part of that. And you've got to select your audience and I select audience, which are people that are interested in church, and you know, various factors around but it's very much you got to be interested in church and and then it comes up on people's feed who seem very antagonistic towards things are fake, which makes me think that then if it's targeted to people that like church then then they must be interested in it somehow, you know, in terms of they just like to troll it, which means that probably, that's what they're there to do, isn't it? So? The trolls are funny.
Nathan Jorden 20:34
Yeah. Well, I I have great fun trawling your pages. And that's one of my favourite things to do is get a pseudo name on it. And yeah,
Chris Bright 20:44
yeah. So yeah, you'd be making all those kind of 90 minute email addresses and just making your Facebook accounts and you know, yeah,
Nathan Jorden 20:55
great way spending my time.
Chris Bright 20:57
Oh, well, you know, maybe apart from, you know, creating fake email addresses and commenting on things. How are you reaching people online? What's the current approach? What's your kind of? What's your current tactic on? Okay, we want to reach people, you know, you talked about your who is people that don't know Jesus. So how what what's your kind of things that you're currently doing to try and reach those people that don't know Jesus?
Nathan Jorden 21:23
Yeah, yeah, let's start with what we're currently doing. And what we'd like to do and what we're going to do, especially over the Christmas season, and I'll frame it, and I should have made this great the beginning. We really don't know what we're doing. But we're doing our best. It's very much this case of we're throwing the spaghetti at the wall and seeing what sticks. I like that idea. And we're just more and more throwing spaghetti at it. But one of the things that we're trying to do is great conversation, and great content that sparks interest makes people think trying to, and again, some of this works, some of it doesn't. Sometimes we'll put out questions, and there's just this Tumbleweed awkward silence as no engages. Other times, we'll put out questions that seem to just spark an interest. And it could be about something serious, it could be about something completely random. But there's an interest in there's engagement. And if you know anything about like the algorithms and how these things work, the more interaction, the more profile gets. And then the greater chance you've got someone catching something that will share the Gospel. Or it will be a moment where they like or interact something along the line in another bit of content that will perhaps might really engage them and speak to where they're at. And so yeah, we've got like a social media strategy. So we're engaged on social media with YouTube as well, primarily using YouTube is what we're primarily using for our services at the moment. So social media is a variety of stuff, like personal stories that we're sharing, engaging content, like asking questions that are just about like trivial things, but encourage conversation and a sense of community. Scripture in like scripture, art, something that just has the, like good news, something to think about. And they tend to get a good response as well. And that tends to be the diet of our social media content. And then for YouTube is a Sunday morning service that we put up. And what's interesting is the majority of we have a 5050 split. So 50% of people will watch live with us, and then another 50% will watch later on in the week. So we try and design our service with that in mind that not everyone is going to be engaging with this live on a Sunday morning. And we try and build it so that wherever and whenever you're watching, you'll be able to connect, and it's not going to be like you're watching something that if I was there live that would have been engaging, and that would have been interesting. But something that if you're doing the dishes, or if you're just on an evening, sat down, check it on, can speak and apply to you and be accessible there. So that's kind of what we're trying at the moment with with regards to reaching new people with ideas over Christmas is, is tapping into this, obviously the Christmas season. We filmed and you are part of the actual Christmas, we found some carols. So we hired a 13th century chapel in Gloucester. And Chris, you played guitar and sang a beautiful voice as well. So we've done some acoustic Carols in this beautiful building. And the idea there is if we can just like capture a little bit of the sound of the house, a wonderful time of worship and something that's festive. People might feel quite proud of that in our community and share it and, and our prayers and we prayed before recording our prayer is that as people hear just that wonderful, authentic worship, there'll be a moment where they experience the presence of God wherever they are. And that would be a real powerful shift in their life that again, would be just like a nudge forward to perhaps engage with our stuff more or to Think about ideas of God or to connect with him. And I know this, you know this, that there are, it's amazing what God can use to get through to us and to communicate to us. Like, I think sometimes we're so I can be so prescriptive, I think to God, about here, here is the forum where you need to operate within, like here's the synth needs to be playing needs to be this kind of lighting. Whereas actually, I look back at the moments in my life where God has really spoken to me or shifted something me and challenged me or moved. And it's been in the light really unconventional ways in strange places in different spaces. And so over Christmas time, we're really praying that these videos these characters can be used in a similar way to connect with people and get them into the presence of
Chris Bright 25:55
Well, thank you so much for listening to this week's podcast. This is only halfway through the podcast, and you can listen to the whole conversation by joining our members podcast, just go to our website, www dot thinking dot church and you can sign up for our members podcast there, it only cost the price of one coffee per month was well worth doing. So why don't you get a coffee, listen to the podcast and learn something new. We'll see you again for this podcast next week. So bye for now.
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