Chris Bright 0:06
Welcome to the thinking church podcast with me, Chris bright. Every week, I'll be speaking with a church leader about ministry strategy, and getting to grips with not just what they do, but the thinking behind why they do it. So without further ado, let's get on to the show. Well, my podcast guest today is Jim Tomblin. Jim serves as the chief of staff at Christ fellowship in Miami, and leads the directional leadership team there. He also is also an author. His books include 125 tips for multi site churches, better together making church mergers, work and church locality new rules for church buildings in a multi site, church planting and Giga church world. He also consults churches in multisite, and merger and succession strategies with the unstuck group. Jim, it's so great to have you back on the podcast. Thanks so much for joining me.
Jim Tomberlin 1:03
Thanks for inviting me back. That's always an honour.
Chris Bright 1:06
Well, I'm excited to dive into the topic today, because multisite is something that I think is, is something that I'm really interested in. And I know a lot of church pastors in the UK are looking to think about multi sites. So we're going to dive into that that topic. And well, let's first dive into straightaway. Now, obviously, your expertise is in multi site. And now there were some pre COVID Best Practices. Let's start maybe with there because before we get into all of the COVID part of it, what were those pre COVID Best Practices? What would you advise a church before? COVID? If they're going to go multisite? What what are the things that you'd be looking to some of the markers, what would you advise a church looking to do multi site?
Jim Tomberlin 1:50
Well, multi site was was continued to thrive before COVID and leading up into the COVID, pre COVID. Here's what there are best practices that were emerging then. First of all, we from date from the I've been in this movement, now for over three decades is one of the early pioneers of the multi site movement when I was a lead pastor in Colorado, and that was one of the early pioneers. But from from, from the very beginning up until pre COVID, we would say that the first the most important decision make best practice is to appoint campus pastors or location pastors who are leaders that is they have a leadership gift, not just a shepherding gift, but clearly there have a leadership gift. And they have the DNA of the sending church. That's probably the most important decision because everything rises or falls on leadership. That was the the first best practices sending out location pastors who who are leaders and have the DNA of the sending church. Secondly, to launch strong and small facilities in order to reach 80% seating capacity, and to get to do or multiple services within the first year. So launching strong that is was a larger launch team as possible a core into in small facilities was the another best practice to standardise and reproduce your ministry best practices across all campuses. That is when we talk about what are the ministry best practices, you know that your worship, practice your small groups, your children's ministry, your children, students ministry is to standardise them. So that all locations, they're all playing at the same level of quality and experience there as well as to establish a central governance team, or central governance of all campuses so that you can protect the brand integrity and the quality of your church. So those are some of the best practices before COVID. Yeah,
Chris Bright 3:54
that's that's, that's really fascinating. And I was really interested to hear I think the protecting the the brand concept. But one thing that I've known, certainly is that whenever you start having multiple sites, they can easily go in different multiple directions. And so bringing that together can be can be really, really hard. And like you said, you've got to kind of replicate that DNA of the sending church. Are there any sort of tips you've got for that reproducing the the DNA? Is that something that I guess it feels like it's got to be caught rather than taught as it were.
Jim Tomberlin 4:31
But I think once it once a church is growing and healthy and ever beginning to do some things right? And you just start thinking about multisite and you ask the question, So Lord, what are we doing right? What do you blessing and how do we translate that in across multiple locations and how do we reproduce that and so what is that what what is transferable there? So that is the challenge of multi sighting is taking, what are we doing and how do we make that transferable to other locations? So you look at what's working here, and then reproduce it in another another village town or location.
Chris Bright 5:08
Yeah, that's right. And the other thought is, there's a lot in terms of multisite best practice about the sending distance. And I've, I've written about this before thinking church, and I kind of likened it to gravity. The best, you kind of have this, you know how planets need to be in a habitable zone? The it needs to be far enough away, but not too far away. Utah, I know, you've talked about before before about that kind of 15 to 30 minutes zone? What's the problem? If you go closer than that? What how do we understand that best practice of 15 to 30 minutes? How do we get to there? And why? Why is it set up that kind of range?
Jim Tomberlin 5:54
Well, the the idea of multisite is that you're not going to the next village or town or neighbourhood you're already there. With people who live in those villages or communities who are making the drive or the walk most we're thinking in our Western culture, we're talking driving. Most people in our experience in the States, and I've also seen this in the in the in the European context, as well, and UK and having been in and out of Europe and UK over the years, is that majority of people live within a 15 to 30 minute drive of their church that that they attend is that you find that true in your community.
Chris Bright 6:33
Yes, yeah, I think we get a few that go outside that 30 minute radius, maybe we get some that have trouble. As far as 45 minutes, I used to attend a church that was 45 minutes away, back in, you know, back in the early 2000s. And but in reality, it was very hard to be part of that church beyond the Sunday, really, and maybe one thing in the midweek you couldn't really get highly involved, but people do will be will travel. But the 30 Minute Rule, I think really does hold hold true in the UK as well.
Jim Tomberlin 7:08
Well, and that's what we are seeing as well in the states that the majority of people who are involved in their local church live within a 15 minute drive of their church. And and then the rest live between 15 and 30 minutes. And so that concept that has made multisite so successful is is that you're you're you're planting or birthing, reproduce in your church in a location where you already have a base of people to build upon who already share your vision, share your DNA. If you if if you launch within 15 minutes, it's not it's too close, because people like well, we're already 15 minutes or less. So that's that can be too close. And it doesn't help the new location, get off to a strong start. But ideally, around the 15 to 30 minutes where the vast majority of churches in the states launch their local campuses, because they have a base of people there who who more attenders are spectators, because the 15 to 30 minutes can be a little too far to be involved on a regular basis. But now you're launching, you're reproducing your church in their community, maybe 20 minutes from the sending campus sending location. And now that 30 minute drive for them as a 20 minute drive or their 25 minute drive is now a 10 minute drive. And so now we can be more involved. So you're building on the on a basis you already have there. When you go beyond 30 minutes. Now you get in what I call church planting territory, because you don't really have any or very few people who already attend your church and that, you know, beyond 30 minutes, I like to call, you know, the apostle Paul, the great church planter said, you know, I want to go to the farthest extension of the Roman empire where no one has gone before. I don't want to build on anyone's base. That's a church planters mindset. And thank God for church planters, because every church, you know, in the world today was started by somebody that was willing to take that bold, aggressive, you know, move to go start a church where there was no picture. Church people are Christians are already. But multisite is the opposite. It's just It says we I want to go and build on the base that we already have laid the foundation of some people already in the community where we want to reproduce our church. It's so which is better. Both are better. We need both. But that's what has made multisite more quickly more successful to getting established and growing is because you're starting with a stronger base.
Chris Bright 9:35
Yeah, that's I think that's absolutely true. We there's something I've talked about before the difference between church planting and a multi site is that you can you can you can plant a church in the same locality, but it would need to have it needs to be reaching a different kind of people as well. You fundamentally have a different kind of target market really because you're trying to reach people that you won't, that your church just wouldn't be able to reach in It's one of those things that's quite hard for churches sometimes to realise that you can't reach everyone. Your church is always designed to reach the people that you're kind of already reaching. And so sometimes you need a different church. But you're absolutely right. As soon as you're out of that 30 minute locality, you're now into you that you're now into sort of more church planting territory. I think I think that's true. Well, it was certainly true, pre COVID, as anything changed now, have the rules changed for the most part of the the best practices change for multisite? Now that we're in this kind of COVID, arrow coming out of COVID, slightly on a COVID gone, but great
Jim Tomberlin 10:35
question, you know, have the rules change are the best practices changed? No, they they're the same, because COVID What COVID Did for not only churches, but for every organisation, every company, every business only accelerated what was already happening pre COVID. It accelerated the good, the bad, and the ugly. And so these were the the best practices I share with you a few moments ago, pre COVID. Were already moving. That was those were the practices that were moving to the future. COVID just accelerated that. And so all those still are applicable. And, and had been reinforced through COVID.
Chris Bright 11:14
Yeah, I think I think you're absolutely right, there's been so many things where you think, has COVID completely changed the landscape? But I think you're I think you're right, in many senses, it's just for the church being in this accelerator where, you know, especially things with online, I think this has completely changed the thought of being able to run video teaching, which I know is one of the big hallmarks of multisite or pre COVID. That was quite a difficult undertaking, but we've just managed to turn on a dime, and do it and actually, things like that now become more possible. And actually, the acceptance of it, you know, before COVID, I know many churches that would have really struggled with the thought of video teaching, and now video teaching. Well, that's just become the norm so that certainly these best practices have been definitely been accelerated. I think, I think you're absolutely right. Well,
Jim Tomberlin 12:04
that's what, that's what COVID has changed. In terms of multisite. When COVID happened, every church in the world, almost every church row became a multi site, church, they had their physical site, they may or may not be meeting, or they eventually started meeting, but they also had a online site now. And so they're in the digital neighbourhood. And that's what multisite is all about. It's taking church to the people. And there are literally millions of people in the digital neighbourhood. It's so And to your point, there was a lot of debate about you, you really can't do church with a on a video screen or video sermons. And, you know, does that really valid and all that, you know, that that all kind of went away during COVID, when that was the only option for people to bring their church to the people was through the internet through digital church experiences.
Chris Bright 12:57
And it's interesting as well, even, I think, even worship, I remember. I remember reading Dan, Rylands book, years ago, and he was advocating for Could you do worship in a multisite context of a video. And this was way before the pandemic is many years before the pandemic. And I think that now, I think that that's, that's now even possible. So there's even more, it's even possible to launch even more lean than we have done before, because actually, we're more used to it. My own church, we do a we'll do a just a midweek worship and prayer evening. Now we can't get all the worship team to do the worship. So what the prayer team uses, they'll just go on to YouTube. And they'll, they'll use the worship from different areas in different places. And it's just as engaging just as you know, you don't lose out on anything. And it's really fascinating. I think there's, there's a, there's a shift that's happened that would, they've embraced this technology. And even, you know, we thought, we all knew that many of us knew that the preaching could happen, but were sceptical about the worship and thought, you know, you could have a band there. But even worship, I think now is starting to change, which I think is really fascinating.
Jim Tomberlin 14:08
You know, it's interesting, because the videotaping a worship service in a large room with, you know, maybe a few 100 people or whatever is different than this. And that's it that does translate online. But a lot of churches here in the US did a different worship experience, not just a large or a ban on a stage in front of few 100 people or even 1000 people watching a big concert kind of service. Others had created a different kind of worship service that was a little more intimate, more maybe acoustical, maybe one or two people in like a studio kind of format and it became very, for many people that became even more personal intimate worshipful it. So it was, it was fun to see the innovation in the creativity in bringing just the worship experience. You know, to internet online audience
Chris Bright 15:02
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I, I just came off, I'm a worship leader myself. And I just was with my church, recording some Christmas songs just on Monday evening, and we went to a, a local church that is, was built in the 1200s. Fantastic and just get this wonderful, intimate experience. It was brilliant. I really enjoyed it. Okay, so let's let's think about multi site and churches. But maybe there's some churches are thinking, Okay, I'm, you know, multi site, we'd love to think about maybe go multi site at some point, we maybe think that, like, God might be calling us to do that. But we're not quite sure if we're in the right place, you know, so what are those initial conditions that a church needs to be looking for if they want to be starting multi sites and to start moving down that that route?
Jim Tomberlin 15:52
So first of all, Chris, it's important to know that multisite is a healthy church strategy, effective multisite churches before they ever launched their second location, are already a healthy, growing, outreach oriented and community centric church. Because at the end of the day, multisided is not primarily a growth engine is more a growth vehicle that will accommodate a growing church will even accelerate a growing church. But but it's all about reproducing who in what you are, I would say every growing church in the US is a is strong in their preaching, in their worship, in their children's ministry, in their welcoming of people guest services in their strong and small groups. These are the characteristics of churches that are candidates to multi site. And that kind of one last thing, typically, before church goes multi site, we'd like to recommend do multiple services can you do to at least to reproduce your service in the same location? That's a good test to see if you can do it in another location? Can we do two services to worship services two, or three? In one location is a good stepping stone towards becoming one church in two locations?
Chris Bright 17:06
Yeah, and I think sometimes the third one can be the real interesting one. Because, you know, when it was two services you can do, you can do back to back services on Sunday morning, and you use the same team and say, Oh, that's all right. We've done that. But what as soon as you go to the third, especially in the UK, now my church wants started a church service, right at lunchtime, as a third service. And it didn't work because the thing in the UK is, you know, you get home and you have your Sunday dinner. That's the thing. So we ended up when we went to our third service pre COVID We had to do in the evening, we there was just no chance to be able to squash them all in in the morning. It was just never gonna happen. And but that was a brand new impact. And I think that was almost for, for from for my church. And I know probably for other churches as well. When you when you go from that, to in the morning to either morning and evening. I think that's the big kicker, because that can be the one where you start to think, Okay, now it's not just about, can we just do that, do that again, and repeat. But now we've got to use maybe different teams, because not everyone can commit to a whole morning and an evening. And maybe it's not right for them to do that. And so you really have to work really, really hard to, to produce that that's, that's now with different teams, you're different. You know, you've got different leaders coming in and leading different shifts to do bits and pieces. So I've noticed that that if you can, if you can do a morning and an evening, and you've got those different people and you're using different people's to do it, that's a good sign that you can replicate that really well if you found that as well.
Jim Tomberlin 18:37
Absolutely. And I would say that really the multisite movement began, not in the late 90s. When and when I started as one of the early pioneers. But it really started about the 1970s when churches made in the US made a very bold, dramatic step to go from one service on the weekend 11 o'clock worship service to two services on on the Sunday morning. That was the beginning in my mind, really at the multi became the multi site movement, because that was a radical step and was met with a lot of resistance. But but growing progressive forward thinking church leaders about the 70s and 80s began to think, Hey, we've got a room sitting empty at nine o'clock. We're full 11 are almost why don't we use have two services. And then as that unfolded than we thought what How about three services maybe earlier, eight o'clock service 830, whatever. And that got traction with a lot of growing churches. And then you know, by the 1990s some really bold churches said what if we do a Saturday night service and and so now we're doing multiple services on multiple days. This was my experience in Colorado. We went from three in the morning and then to two on Saturday nights. And then we had some empty rooms like a fellowship hall or a student centre room. What if we or a basement knock in my case? What if we made that a video venue? In that back in that day, it was like closed circuit TV is before videos even though it was just overflow room, which often was a very bad experience until realise, hey, let's make this a value added experiences make this an alternative in your experience for people a good one. And so were we churches went from multiple services to multiple days to multiple rooms, it was an inevitable step to go to multiple locations as the technology the video technology developed and allowed church leaders growing churches to maximise and leverage that technology and recognise we can take our church to other parts of our community. Yeah, it was it's a beautiful thing to watch how this is unfolding.
Chris Bright 20:54
Well, thank you so much for listening to this week's podcast. This is only halfway through the podcast, and you can listen to the full conversation by joining our members podcast, just go to our website, www dot thinking dot church and you can sign up to our members podcast there. It only costs the price of one coffee per month so it's well worth doing. So why not get a coffee, listen to the podcast and learn something new. We'll see you again for this podcast next week. So bye for now.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
