Chris Bright 0:06
Welcome to the thinking church podcast with me, Chris bright. Every week I'll be speaking with a church leader about ministry strategy and getting to grips with not just what they do, but the thinking behind why they do it. So without further ado, let's get on with the show. Well, my guest today is Justin Briley. Justin is the theology and apologetics editor at Premier and presents the podcast unbelievable, and has interviewed such guests as Bishop Robert Barron Douglas Murray, Jordan Peterson's, Roger Penrose, Dave Rubin, John Lennox and Darren brown to name but actually just a really tiny few. Justin also hosts the Ask NT write anything podcast, where Justin gets the the listening audience to ask Tom Wright all sorts of interesting questions about theology in life and Christian living. Justin is also a tick tock sensation, which I found out and has a whopping 253,000 followers on that channel. I started the thinking church, tick tock Channel Two weeks ago, we have seven followers. And we're coming. We're coming for you, Justin. That's the best thing I can say. Just it's so great to have you on the show.
Justin Brierley 1:24
Thank you very much, Chris, no I will happily become your eighth follower. I'll go and go and look up thinking church and give you a shout out.
Chris Bright 1:32
Amazing. Thank you so much. And it's worth saying if you're if you're watching this on video, and for some reason, my face is squashed. I can't work out why I've tried changing the video, we tried restarting it all again. But for some reason, I'm squashed. So you're gonna have to forgive me?
Justin Brierley 1:45
It's that new diet you've been on Chris. Maybe that did wonders for you.
Chris Bright 1:49
Yeah, I'll take that. Amazing. Well, today, we're going to dive into some questions and just really want to talk about some things that have been on my mind thinking about how we can dive into things in the church and asking some of the really big questions. And so as Justin, that's why I really wanted to speak with you today, cuz I think you've got a lot to really help me help our audience with as well. So okay, let's let's go for it. Well, Justin, you talk with a lot of sceptics. And many of those sceptics that come on your show, they often started out life as Christians, which I was really interested to find out a lot of the shows or listened to the start as Christians, but since moved away from the faith, and often being in the kind of teenage years, they moved away. What what do you think has contributed to church failing people tackling life's deepest questions? And because it seems like that was always one of those things, that their faith or how they grew up in their faith never helped them? answer those kind of
Justin Brierley 2:47
questions. Yeah, I think the roots of it are very often in the formative years. And so you're right, an awful lot of sceptics who kind of talk about it, who kind of have a platform, if you like, have have had some background in the Christian church? And and yeah, I think the reasons can be varied as to why people ultimately move away. And I'm not saying that this is true of everyone, but But what I do quite frequently find is that very often people have kind of grown out of a specific version of faith that they were presented as almost the only option, I think, when they were growing up, maybe so it might have been some quite rigid, dogmatic, fundamentalist kind of perspective, where, you know, if you question this aspect of our understanding of the Bible, maybe six day creationism or some particular view of Scripture or whatever, you're, you know, you're you can't be a Christian essentially, and, and it's rather sad when people maybe come to a realisation that they can't hold that together intellectually, and they kind of make the decision to jettison faith altogether to leave the church altogether. And, and, and so lots of the ex Christian de convert type stories I've found have been that sort of thing where some sort of supposedly, you know, unquestionable aspect, or doctrine of Christian faith has been questioned, you know, and they haven't been able to reconcile it. And they've sort of decided to leave. Think is really sad, because what I think just churches, the way churches fail young people in that way is they don't allow, or they haven't, in the past, at least allowed space for questions for doubts, to present more of a variety of Christian perspective that exists on many issues. If if there are presented only as as this is the only option, and we're not even going to talk about the other ways other Christians historically, you know, have viewed things, then I think, inevitably, in the age of the internet, you can't any longer expect young people to sort of just sort of accept what the leader says and you know, and that's the end of it sort of thing. I think that is changing in lots of churches, I think there's much more of an openness to the fact that, yes, churches may have specific views on specific topics, but that actually, they're aware that that, you know, young people are going to bump into scepticism or simply alternative views in all kinds of different ways. And so I do see a lot of good change in a lot of churches where they're now opening it up helping young people think through ask questions, giving room for doubt, so that those questions can be worked through in a kind of healthy way, rather than it being sort of something that stuffed down or they're told that they have to, you know, not think about or, or being given, you know, simply bad answers to some of the questions that they're, they're, they're asking, and that can lead to a crisis of faith, you know, but I think if, if we're open about the realities about the questions about the doubts, if we take the time to work to wisely help people walk through those issues, it can actually be really good for people's faith, not rather than a destructive thing, it can be a really constructive thing, it can really help in the long run, and in its own small way, my hope is that the show is doing that. Sometimes I think the show comes along almost too late. For some people, they've kind of been on their journey, they've kind of decided no, I'm out of it. I'm not not involved anymore, but there are those for whom it has actually really helped them. Because they've been somewhere along that journey. And and the show has actually opened up the arcade, there are other ways to think about this. There are good answers to this. So yeah, so that's, that's definitely part of the picture.
Chris Bright 6:27
Yeah, I remember when I was in my mid 20s, I'm not in my mid 20s, anymore. But I remember in my mid 20s, I started listening to William Lane, Craig's defenders class, and he presented about six day creation, or, as you just presented about creation, and then the various views around Christendom, that there were, and it just blew my mind, because I grew up, you know, very strongly, in one view of, of, you know, this is how the world you know, this is how the Bible teaches about where the world came from, very strongly that way. But for me, it was, like you said it was a, it was a releasing thing, not releasing in terms of, oh, great, you know, we can, we can do what we like and make scripture do what we want, it was nothing like that it was very, you felt like the world opened up a bit more and became more open, you felt like you're growing in your faith, rather than trying to sort of dogmatically hold to, to something which you are struggling to work out in the face of certain different areas of life. I guess, maybe that gets me on some thoughts of the areas, you know, maybe like, for me, it was it was looking at creation and those kind of things, but what are the areas that the big questions, those big topics? Maybe there's like a top five or something, but what are the top five as a church? You think, okay, we need to start addressing, and these are the things that people are really thinking through, these are the topics that we need to be focusing on?
Justin Brierley 7:50
Yeah. Again, it will vary depending on the context of the church, and, and what, you know, the immediate sort of questions and, you know, issues are that they're facing, maybe in their local context, but I'd say sort of, in the West, generally, and for many churches, and the Christians who are coming along to their churches, you know, one of the key issues inevitably, is LGBT, you know, that's, that's the kind of key area where frequently the churches butting heads with the culture, and there may be, you know, lots of different views represented, even within a church on that, and the church itself, you know, may have a kind of perspective on that. But if it's never, if it's only ever sort of there as a kind of, well, this is the way we think about it, but never kind of opened up disgust given a rationale, then, then I think that can be a problem, you know, that that can definitely be a place in which Christians feel like I am out of, I don't have a, you know, a good reason, or I can't see a good reason why my church takes this perspective when everyone around me takes a different one. So I think being honest, and kind of opening up those conversations and and sort of not ducking them is important if you take a perspective on something like that, as a church. But there are all kinds of other, you know, key issues that inevitably Christians come up against the problem of suffering is a key one, you know, that comes up in all kinds of different ways. For Christians, I think it's important that churches deal with that help, you know, people to think through that. Talk through it at an intellectual level at an emotional level. I think. And I think, you know, again, depending on circumstance, the way we understand creation, evolution may be a significant issue, especially if a church has taught a very sort of specific, you know, type of creationism or something like that. And I'm not saying churches shouldn't necessarily hold to their convictions on that front. But I think if it's not done in a kind of helpful way that helps people to engage questions and and sort of an open ended sort of way that that can as well be be quite difficult. And yeah, and beyond that there, there are sort of all kinds of issues, you know, that I've encountered that, you know, Christians sort of struggle with the issue of salvation, hell, that kind of thing. You know, that's an area where I would say my perspective has changed over the years. On that kind of issue. The the question of, kind of other religions, the question of, you know, how Christians should engage culturally, politically, socially, those are all kind of really important ones, they'll come out in different ways, in different in different sort of scenarios. But I think churches that aren't sort of helping their people to think through those sorts of issues mean that people will either become sort of disengaged, or they'll kind of just think, well, church is just something that speaks to this one bit of my life or this one hour on a Sunday, and not see that actually, it's it's equipping them to walk, you know, across the whole of their life through the whole of the week. And, and so for me, you know, that's a big ask for church leaders. You know, that's, that's huge, in many ways. But I think, in the age we live in, we have to have a kind of holistic sort of approach where we actually do encourage people to think through and engage those those big issues in that way.
Chris Bright 11:24
Yeah, I guess there's a, there can be a fear in churches to put your head above the parapet, as it were to say, this is what we believe. But I wonder if two churches have a problem in how we present what we believe because I mean, you talk in a very conversational format, you'll have one view, and then the opposing view, as well. That's often doesn't happen in a church format, it's obviously not a one person speaking. Is there a problem with how we present what we believe, do you think,
Justin Brierley 11:57
I think that is, in as much as you know, the church model has for so long been a kind of top down, you know, preacher at the front, lots of people listening, it's a very kind of one way, kind of way of delivering information, isn't it, and it's very hard to get out of that mould in a way, it still exists. You know, lots of people turn up for lectures and Ted Talks and that kind of thing. But we are living in an age I certainly my kids, you know, go to when they're at school, that it's very rare for them to get their information only delivered in that way, there'll be sort of some kind of discussion element, there'll be other ways in which they're engaged in the material, you know, there'll be people who are learning in different sort of, you know, prefer, audio, visual, whatever. And so I think, I think there's a lot for churches to learn in that way. I think the reason so many people have, you know, the podcast stuffers has exploded, is there's a kind of open access way, you know, it, whereas there used to be these gatekeepers of media. And so you could only get your news sources through the BBC, or the kind of traditional broadcast media or print media. Now, there's a sort of flood of, you know, lots of independent content producers, and, you know, anyone can pick up, you know, get online and start a podcast. And, you know, as you know, they could be the next whoever Jordan Peterson or whatever, but there's this lots of sorts of opportunities. And there's a kind of a kind of, it's democratised, to some extent, the way people share and receive information, there's an expectation that I will be able to have some input, you know, I will be able to comment on this person, I'll be able to send them questions, I'll be able to discuss it somewhere. And so all of that, I think, has to be taken on board. That doesn't mean we change the way we do church math, you know, wholesale, but, but just the awareness that people's expectations about the way they take in information and their expectations around the fact that they may be you're going to hear alternative perspectives and, and that kind of thing. I think that all needs to be taken on board by churches, because otherwise it will feel like churches are simply, you know, still essentially wedded to a model that hasn't really existed for the last 30 years in that way.
Chris Bright 14:13
Hmm. Yeah, I think it's interesting. I think there's, it feels like with how media has changed and how we consume media, it means that nowadays people are, you know, when you go to listen to something, or watch or listen to a podcast, it's very much like, like, we're talking now. It's often conversational. And so listening to a lecture is actually only a very small part of your life. You know, it's maybe a few years at university. And it's, most people don't consume media in that way. anymore. And so I think it's, it is interesting, it's an interesting conundrum. I think, for the church. I don't think it it takes away from the need for preaching and you know, having that that medium of one person speaking to a congregation, but I do think that there's probably some variety, I think that the church probably
Justin Brierley 14:57
Yeah, and it can be simple as sort of Replacing a sermon format potentially with with a conversational format. Or, you know, if the Minister is really brave, you know, maybe even there's some kind of q&a element to to a sermon or whatever. I think that engages people at a slightly different level, if they see a to and fro, it's it's kind of you're, you're engaging something in a way in the way that you normally engage in things you normally most of our life is spent more in a dialogue sort of fashion with people we don't, it's only almost at church or in some other scenarios where we literally sit down and just listen to someone talk to us for 20 minutes. And so I think I think that, you know, just you, speakers, preachers, ministers may just find it valuable actually, that actually, hey, turns out the stuff kind of goes in, when when I adopt a different way of putting the information across. And I think that can be that can be really helpful. And certainly we've done at our church show, I'm married to Lucy, who's the minister of the church that I'm part of, and we've, when we've done sort of big questions type series, you know, where we've had people sending questions, and we've tried to answer them, we've often done a kind of tag team kind of preaching thing. And so it's more like a conversation between us is a little bit of a scripted one, but it's, it's kind of delivers the same information, you could have just put in a kind of lectures type sermon, but actually, it actually comes across in a very different way, in that way. And, you know, the feedback we had was very good to the that we're delivering it.
Chris Bright 16:32
No, that's absolutely fantastic. Really, really fascinating to hear. And I think, I think there'll be more churches that adopt that, as the years go by, I really think, and it's been interesting, you know, when you're looking at church trends, and you're seeing how the church has been declining for decades now. But interestingly, you know, as of recently, there's been this kind of resurgence of people investigating faith, especially looking at the Bible. And one person was, was the the, that comes to mind is someone that you mentioned just earlier, which is Jordan Peterson, who you had on your show. I know, he's not outspokenly Christian, in that sense. He certainly has some Christian ethics that he works to. But he does teach extensively from the Bible. And he does a tour and 1000s come to listen to him speak. And 1000s were listened to his, his podcasts where he's having conversations and and so I'm wondering what these kind of new thinkers like the Jordan Peterson's of this world, what are they doing that the church are missing, especially when they're talking about the Bible? Yeah,
Justin Brierley 17:37
well, I think I think it is partly because it is very conversational. And in fact, I said, the very first episode of that I had John Peterson numbers was of a special series from unbelievable, called the big conversation, which has been created in partnership with the John Templeton Foundation, and, and over the seasons, where we've just add our third season, we've featured a number of these, yes, new thinkers, it might be one way of describing them, they're kind of secular, but they're, they're kind of more open than a previous generation of the new atheists were to the value of Christianity. So in this last season, we featured people like Douglas Murray in conversation with NT right, Douglas Murray being a kind of as equal as himself, Christian atheist. So he's a, you know, very influential cultural commentator. More on the conservative side, obviously, but he's he sees the value of Christianity, even though he's an atheist, he sort of he regrets that we're losing a kind of a Christian ethos to this country he had to the west, generally, he sees the way that culture in many ways is imploding. Because there is no shared narrative, no shared story, that kind of people can live by. And, and likewise, you know, when I've featured others, similar thinkers along those lines, people like Dave Rubin and Tom Holland and others, there's this kind of really interesting perspective that's developing that we, you know, a lot of these people talking about Christianity and saying, Actually, we, we, we've thrown the baby out with the bathwater, or the New Atheists did, because we suddenly realise we are intrinsically religious, we're meaning seeking creatures. And in the absence of the Judeo Christian narrative that framed most people's lives, for millennia, literally, we're suddenly left kind of drifting in a in a kind of make your own meaning kind of world and people can't cope with that. You know, I think I'm actually writing a book on this very subject. I think it's a a significant part of what is behind you know, the rise in anxiety, mental health issues is linked to obviously the technology and social media and everything else. But there's a sense that you now that we live in a culture where you basically have to make your own meaning. People really struggle with that because we're not we're kind of we're not really made to just work out for ourselves that we've all and, and so there's there's just some really interesting conversations there. And I think why people like Peterson have become so popular is they have I think I think they managed to do something which is take the questions that the church should have been addressing, and ask them in a different way, a fresh mode. And suddenly, it's kind of so many people are like, Whoa, that that's he's put his finger on this kind of itch, you know, that I've been feeling? Why? Why am I you know, why haven't I been happy? Why? Why can't don't I feel like my life has purpose or meaning why what is and, and for whatever reason, someone like Peterson or these others, they are finding this audience and they're basically yeah, Peterson has sort of said, Oh, turns out the answers are all here in the Bible. Now. Now he has this particular kind of psychological spin on it. But it's very interesting. I mean, you know, Nobel Prize, whoever can work out exactly what Jordan Peterson does believe about God. But the the the point is, he's, he's obviously on some kind of journey, kind of quite significant journey, where he's really wrestling with this whole question. And he sees that there is a kind of, there's, there's a way that we are made to be, and there's a way that the person of Jesus Christ very specifically, is, in some way, the preeminent example of how you join, you know, who we are with the nature of reality. And, you know, he's been exploring that in all kinds of different ways, through conversations through lectures, and everything else. I think part of the appeal as well, is, is almost that he doesn't have all the answers. And that I think, sometimes that's the problem with churches is they kind of present it in a very kind of, here's my 20 minutes. And by the end of this, I'll have told you exactly what life is all about. Peterson, you know, he, he, he, it's kind of like, he's got all these interesting stories and facts, and you know, and conversations, but you get the sense, he's still working it out. And I think that's part of the excitement of the people who follow him is that they feel like know that. This guy isn't just telling me what to believe he's kind of sort of in the process. And you know, and he gets very emotional about it. And he's sort of you can see it matters to him and that he's passionate about this. And, and I think sometimes that's what's missing in our churches is it's a bit too. It's, it's a little bit too contrived, or kind of, you know, all pre packaged and neatly wrapped up. And and I think what you get is a kind of bit more of a rule, someone who's still processing it for themselves with Peterson, and that's somehow immensely attractive, actually, to the people who follow Him. And I'm sure there's a lesson in there for for, you know, churches and church leaders to learn from because, you know, yeah, I can imagine many church leaders would love to see their auditoriums packed out with people coming to listen to you know, they're going on for an hour about, you know, the Cain and Abel story or something doesn't happen very often, but it does for Jordan Peterson. So yeah, I think I think there's some really interesting lessons there.
Chris Bright 23:08
Yeah, I think there's, there's a lot of those. Those kind of new thinkers you mentioned Douglas Murray as well. And Tom Holland, obviously not Spider Man, Tom Holland. But historian, which is the funny link is whenever I talk about Tom Holland, I always think about the historian before I think about it, yeah. And but I mentioned him everyone thinks I'm talking about spider man.
Justin Brierley 23:32
And he frequently gets confused for Spider Man on social media. In fact, he groans every time a new Spider Man movie comes out because suddenly knows he's going to get a whole lot of at mentions of people, you know, thinking is, you know, that the other Tom Holland,
Chris Bright 23:47
he's one that the fascinates me so much when thinking about the, how he thinks about life and Christianity, and there's one of the things I'm sure it was on your show that he said that. He says he describes himself as in every way Christian, he himself is not actually a Christian. But he recognises that the very bedrock of society that he's he's on is a is a, there's Christian morality, all the way through it. And I think there's this interesting point that maybe this maybe something that we're missing, I feel like is recognising that the very fabric and the institutions that we we love, and the reasons that they were created were created on the bedrock of, of Christianity and the Christian worldview. And it's even something that that Peterson talks about, and he was saying that he will deny that the New Atheists are really atheist at all because of how they live. And so if you're really atheist, you wouldn't actually live like that. And I like that. I think there's some there's a strength that we can draw on from that, even though they're completely different thinkers. They're, you know, they're, they're coming from the kind of secular world but they've got their finger on something to say, hold on. this Christianity thing is it's not just something that's seemingly dying. No, no, it's the very bedrock of it. bedrock that you stand on and and if you if you reject it, which I think is, is definitely what it is you when you when you have a bedrock of Christianity you can't you can't just say oh, I'm not going to believe that anymore or you have to fully
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