Chris Bright 0:06
Welcome to the thinking church podcast with me, Chris bright. Every week, I'll be speaking with a church leader, ministry strategy, and getting to grips with not just what they do, but the thinking behind why they do it. So without further ado, let's get on with the show. Well, my guest today is Sam Hales. Sam is the editor of Premier Christianity, the UK leading Christian magazine. Before joining Premier, he has worked as a freelance journalist and as a social media manager. So he's got a lot to input to us today. And I'm sure that you're really enjoy what Sam has to say, Sam, it's so great to have you on the podcast today.
Sam Hailes 0:50
Thank you so much, Chris. Wonderful to be with you.
Chris Bright 0:52
Brilliant, brilliant. Well, I really wanted to talk to you today, because I've been thinking a lot about the church and how we're responding in this time, and we're thinking, thinking churches, were a strategy company. So we're thinking a lot about how do we position ourselves in the world? And how can we best do that? For churches to have the sorts of greatest impacts? So some we kind of we know that church attendance in the UK has been declining for decades now, really. And at the same time, I'm noticing that churches less and less are addressing those kind of issues that are on people's minds. And you know, the big topics in life. What do you think has? Why do you think churches have taken that step away from the big questions that are being asked by people in the world today?
Sam Hailes 1:46
Yeah, well, I think first of all, it's just great what you said at the beginning there, which doesn't sound great does it churches in decline. But the reason the reason I think it's really good, you're starting there is, is I'm concerned that not everyone realises that which knows a bit sounds like a strange thing to say, because it is so obvious when you look at the figures, but it's something I actually asked him quite a lot in interviews, I say, look, we've got to be honest here, all the trends are down, what are we going to do about it? And it's not until we're upfront as Christians and acknowledged that this is not a good trend that we can then start to ask the big questions of okay, what we're going to do about it. And I think, unfortunately, there is a bit of naivete still amongst some Christians about the kind of culture we live in today. This is not a culture that is particularly open to the Gospel. And so we have to actually ask some hard questions. Why is that? And what can we do about it? So I think that kind of realism is a really helpful place to start. And then I guess the second part of your question is, is more? Does this have something to do with the fact we're not talking about the big issues of life? I mean, first of all, is it the case that Christian Christians and churches aren't talking about the big issues? I mean, I know of one church in Brighton that surveyed local people and said, If you could ask God, any question, what would it be? And they did quite a lot of research on this thing. It was an online survey. And then whatever those top five or 10 questions were they did a sermon on that question each week for I think it was 10 weeks. And I thought, Well, that's good. Isn't it as a good example of a church going to local peoples? What are the questions you actually have? Not? What do we as Christians think are the questions you have, but actually asking people directly, and then seeking to answer those through sermons? And I think that's that I thought that was a really great way of doing some kind of apologetics really on on a Sunday morning. Admittedly, that's a bit of an isolated example. I don't hear those sorts of stories a lot. And certainly there are some people who argue that one of the reasons we're seeing the decline is was what you said that the Christian churches aren't addressing the big questions that people have. Personally, I think it's personally I'm happy to say it's part of the puzzle. I don't think it's the whole story. But certainly I would be of the view that as Christians, and as churches, we have to meet people where they're at. And that includes dealing with some of the intellectual objections that you do come across to Christianity. And I think as Christians, we can be confident there are really good and really strong answers to those questions. It's just a case of finding them and also delivering them and applying them in a way that makes sense to people.
Chris Bright 4:00
Yeah, that's really good. I've been thinking through this topic quite a lot. And I started to blog through the book of Acts. And I'm, I think I'm about nine blogs in and I'm still only in chapter four. So it's gonna take me a long time, it's gonna take me I think it's gonna take me probably a life's work to get to. But just my my job is to obviously look at it through a kind of looking at through a strategy lens and trying to look you know, what was going on in the early church, what can we learn from it from a strategy point of view? And one of the things I was struck with really, quite early is how often the church got into trouble. Not that they were obnoxious in any way. You know, when Peter stands up to speak, he's not obnoxious, really at all. But what he says when he boldly says what he believes he gets into trouble. So my question is, do you think that us in the UK church Christians in the UK, do you think we're playing a bit safe?
Sam Hailes 4:58
I think some of us And I would include myself in that I've been guilty of that 100%. I think sometimes even as a preacher, you think, oh, you know, do I really want to go there, that's gonna upset people. And it's really important that we don't think like that. And actually, as Christians, we are supposed to live, forgive the cheesy phrase, but we are supposed to live for an audience of one, we are supposed to say, God, I'm leaving for you, and I'm speaking your truth. And if some people don't like it, you know, that's alright. That's their issue. I've got, I've got to live to please you. And so certainly, we've got to be a bit. Well, in fact, the Evangelical Alliance, said this, when, when Gavin kava took over, he did an interview, I think pretty much on day one of his new job. And he told me he wanted, he wanted the organisation to be braver, and bolder. And that's what he's seeking to do at the Evangelical Alliance. But I think in general, that's true of a lot of evangelical churches, not just the EAA as a body, we do need to be a bit braver and bolder. And again, I say that of myself, I think there are definitely times we have to just take a bit of a stand, even if it's culturally very, very unpopular. And what we've seen is Christianity, move, I think, from something that's perceived as a little bit strange and weird, increasingly now in parts of culture are seen as being quite dangerous and destructive. And that's really quite a big shift that we've got to get our heads around. But of course, the encouraging news and all of this is that, as you know, where the church is, is under threat or is persecuted around the world in history. And today, the church grows. So at the end of the day, you know, God's in control of this stuff. And I think we have, we have got to be a bit braver and bolder. But I can point to parts of the church that will say they're being brave and bold, whereas in my opinion, they are just being antagonistic. And that's just my view, I can also point to parts of the church that I think are being timid and need to speak up a bit. So it's a really, it's a really great question and a really great challenge. I think for all of us personally, as Christians to think through of am I treading that line? Am I being faithful to the Gospel, I being faithful to Jesus and saying what is true? But am I also seeking to do it with gentleness and respect, which the Bible also instructs us to do? So? I think getting that balance is really key. And I certainly haven't figured it out yet.
Chris Bright 7:03
Yeah, I put myself in the same camp. Because I think where I probably say, I probably be in the more timid category and think, Gosh, I need to be a bit bolder in in my faith and be a bit bolder as to what I believe. And I think it's very easy, especially in the social media climates, and you know, that anything that you believe can be taken and torn apart, of course, and so I think that probably, for many Christians in the UK, they probably sit in the too timid, I think you're absolutely right, as well, there are, there are churches that are just probably more than the what accosted the obnoxious sides. And maybe what they need to do is just learn to still say what they believe but with, with that kind of grace, and all those kind of things, that there's a bit more kindness in their tone, but not changing what they believe. I think that's, I think that's the the fine line that we've got to we've got to go with that. And it's a really hard one to get. I think it's gonna take a lot of tweaking and changing I think,
Sam Hailes 8:06
yeah, I forget who said it, but I love the quote that the gospel is offensive, you don't need to be mad. I think that's the point, isn't it? If if anyone's gonna be offended by someone in your church, make sure it's the gospel that make sure it's not that they're offended because of your political views, or you know what I mean? Like, let's keep the main thing, the main thing and, and the Gospel, you know, there's a scripture says, for some people, it is this sweet smell. And for others, it's the stench of death. You know, I mean, goodness, that's a stark way of putting it, isn't it there? And so, you know, we've got to be real and upfront about that, but certainly, I never want to, and I never want to be a stumbling block. I never want my, you know, political views or I don't know, the state of our church toilets or carpet to be off putting I want the gospel to be off putting if it if it has to be, but I don't want anything else to be off putting.
Chris Bright 8:54
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. One of the things I love about premier Christianity is it is seeking to sort of deliberately comment on the current affairs in Britain, especially and around the world. How do you curate the content for that? Because you get a lot of, you know, Op Ed stuff? And how would you curate the content so that it's even handed and how would you go about that?
Sam Hailes 9:23
I wish I knew Chris, I should know that. Every day is different. And there's no hard and fast rules. I suppose the first thing to say is I've you know, as editor inherited an incredible kind of legacy, if you like, Premier Christianity magazine started life in 1965 as Buzz Magazine, and it's been published every single month since 1965. And so occasionally, I go to offices and I go down to the basement, and I get out all the back copies and I have a flick through and it's fascinating. Cliff Richard appeared a lot in our magazine in the 80s and 90s. Especially. And I can tell you some other things about the archive, but I don't want to sidetrack us too much, but the Point is because the magazine has been around for such a long time, we actually, you know, our reputation precedes us in a really helpful way. And so actually, there's a lot of writers out there, who will pitch in ideas. There's a lot of contacts we have as a magazine from across the denominations. And they'll come to me say, Sam, here's a great story happening in our church or sound, here's a theological issue I want to write about. Or even, you know, here's a great issue you should be tackling, but I'm not the person to write it. And then we go away and have a think about who is the person to write it. So I think the first thing to say is our reputation is really helpful. People know who we are, they know what we do, and they come to us with ideas. And then in terms of other idea generation, that's just me, personally, being immersed in this world, you know, I am a, I am a voluntary sort of church leader. I'm in church leadership, my local church. So you know, a lot of our readers, our church leaders, a lot of our readers, a small group leaders or alpha leaders. And so because I'm in that, well, personally, hopefully, I know the sorts of things our audience are interested in. And then the other thing you just hinted at in your question is what's happening in the news. And so every day, we're looking at what is on BBC News. And what what is the mainstream news agenda? What are they talking about? And then we ask the question, well, what is what is the Christian response to that? And of course, the answer to that question is, there isn't one single Christian response. Instead, there are Christian responses. And so we then seek to try and reflect some of that diversity in the UK church. And that, of course, lands us in trouble. Because in the last few months, for example, we published some stuff on transgender, some of it's taken a very traditional view. And some of it hasn't. And the reason we've done that as we seek to reflect the diversity within the UK church there, you know, you and I may may like to think there is one Christian view on transgender but yeah, you know, in reality, there isn't. And there are Christians that disagree on that subject. And there's, you know, very difficult, very tricky, pastoral questions around that as well. And so we try and reflect that debate quite sensitively. So we do a mixture of looking at the kind of big picture theology what is right, but we also try and do the more kind of past or how should the church respond to people because especially with that particular subject, these are this is people we're talking about, this is not just an issue. So that's a long answer to a short question. But it's what I love about this role, is it is incredibly diverse. And one minute, you'll be talking about squid again, and the next minute, you'll be talking about the doctrine of hell, and kind of everything in between. And you're just seeking to provide a space for the UK church to have a conversation on the things that matter, both inside the church and in culture more generally.
Chris Bright 12:32
Yeah, I wonder what have you do? What do you get accused of, you know, Premier Christianity is, you know, a far left magazine or a far right magazine? Is that something that you have to deal with? A lot? Are you on the end of, you know, Twitter mobs? How would you deal with that kind of stuff?
Sam Hailes 12:51
Yeah, to be honest with you, I can't remember the last time we had an email that was you are a right wing, or you are a left wing magazine as a whole. And I think, I think you certainly can critique and people do critique individual articles, that they're uncomfortable with whatever reason, but I, I don't tend to hear it as, as General, you know, you are a white right wing or left wing. And I think the reason for that is we have worked really hard to represent the diversity of the church. I mean, back when I joined premiere, I started as a as a news and feature journalist, I remember this question actually came up in my interview for the job, and they said, you know, how do you see the UK church? And how would you cover it? And what I said, then, I guess I'd still say now, which is that as I look at the UK church, I see people who care about quote, unquote, left wing issues, which might be I don't know, it might be the environment now increasing, that's not a left wing issue, but it's perceived as being a left wing issue amongst some, or poverty. Now, again, it's not real, but it's perceived as all there are certain Christian charities that lean to the left and talk a lot about poverty, or food banks, or whatever it is. And then you look and you say, well, there are Christians that seem to really care about, quote, unquote, right wing issues. They talk a lot about family and a lot about marriage and a lot about the sanctity of life or euthanasia. I said, my heart is to bring all this together in one place, because I personally, I think God cares about all of those things. And can we provide a space where actually it's not just divided on political lines, but we come together as the church and say, Well, what does God care about? And how can we no matter what our personal politics get involved in what God is doing? So that's kind of how I sought to edit the magazine. You know, I remember we did going back to what you said earlier about, sometimes needed to be bold and brave about these things. We did a we did a cover story. Last year in the middle of the George Floyd's murder did a big cover story. It's that black lives matter to Jesus. And actually, I have to say that cover was really well received by almost everyone. We did get a little bit of flack, but generally people were really pleased to see us doing that. And it was very interesting online. There was real buzz about it and everyone was sharing it tennis is fantastic. almost exactly a year later, we did a cover story on the subject of abortion, and said the church should not be silent about it. It was very interesting, didn't get a lot of retweets and a lot of sharing. And and I think there are just some issues as Christians, it's kind of easier to talk about culturally, if you talk about, you know, racism is wrong culture will say yes, fantastic. If you talk about abortion culture is less likely to kind of welcome you with open arms. But I do think as Christians, both really matter, I mean, both, in my opinion, are pro life issues. And so we will kind of make no apology for speaking about both and seeking to, to inform the debate, I suppose. And so I will shut up in a minute. But one last thing on this, you could edit all this out afterwards. And I'm waffling on too much. But I'm sorry, I've just I'm passionate about what we do. But the other thing is, is on this is I don't expect Christians to pick up the magazine necessarily read an article and completely change their mind. I don't really think that happens too much. I mean, I'm certainly too stubborn to read one feature, and then completely change my mind on an issue. But what I am hoping is that Christians will read a piece and come away and say, Okay, I now understand why other good Christians think differently to me on this issue. So for me, it's actually about building understanding and unity, more than it is about getting us all to agree.
Chris Bright 16:09
Yeah, I think I, I get that. And I think understanding the breadth of, and the diversity of opinion within the body of Christ has been really helpful for me in just my own sort of personal journey of learning more about theology and learning more about God and realising there's so many different views on so many different things. And actually, there's a there's a strength there, which I think is helpful. And sometimes it needs to, you know, when churches need to be bold and say, This is where we stand on certain things, but they have to have a breadth on on certain issues, is actually shows us that. I think it shows a great strength in the church that there is there is a nice sort of diversity of opinion. And it doesn't. I know, it obviously does cause some division, but it but we're still you know, we're still all believers together. And I think that's a that's a great thing. I was thinking about if churches wanted to start talking about maybe a big topic and you know, you talked about you did a you know, black lives matter to Jesus front cover, you also run an abortion front cover. I think the thing that churches worry about if they were going to do it, you know, we're going to talk about abortion this Sunday, or about racism this Sunday, is there'll be worried about the backlash, either from their own congregation or even from the public, which can happen nowadays. When you come to, you know, hit publish on or go to print, you're on one of these things, what are the risks that you're weighing up? And, and how does it differ? Does it differ for online and for print? And how do you approach those kind of things?
Sam Hailes 17:46
Yeah, that's a great question. I suppose the first thing I'd say on that is just because I do wear a sort of church leader hat as well as an editor hat. I'm not saying that everything a Christian magazine does a church should or even could do, I do think as a media company, there are some things, it's easier for us to do. So I'm very well aware of the sensitivities. I mean, for us in terms of weighing up the risks. I mean, I'll be honest, that the last issue we did was more edgy than an average issue. It just so happened that the last issue had transgender, Halloween, and ghosts and euthanasia. One issue, and you know, I'll be honest, I am far from the perfect editor, if I have my time, again, maybe I pull back on one or two of those, because really, you know, our job as a magazine, it isn't just to provoke people, it is to encourage the church. And, you know, we do things like we publish a New Testament every single month. And you know, we do work quite hard to be positive. We don't want to just become a magazine that's, you know, moaning about all the things that are wrong in the church, far from it, we want to be an encouragement to church leaders. So I guess, you know, we don't always get it, right. And that's why it's great to hear from readers. And they will say, Why did you do that, and why didn't appreciate that. And we get a real mix of positive and more critical feedback. But even even the critical feedback is very interesting, because actually, who are the people who read this magazine, the people who read this magazine are committed to their local church, they love their local church, many of them are leaders in their local church, but they the reason they pick it up is just once a month to get a broader perspective on what is happening outside of their locality outside of their denomination, even outside the UK. And we try and be international as well. And so actually, they're open, our ears are open to hearing other perspectives, including ones they disagree with. So again, that's perhaps a little bit different from a church. You know, you think if you're a church, if you're a preacher, your job is not really to open up. Oh, well, you know, here's lots of different ideas. Your job is to preach the Word of God and say, this is true. And so as a media company that speaking to lots of different Christians and sourcing different views is different. It's just a different form of communication to for example, preaching so I wouldn't want to you know, conflate the two necessarily, but I don't know, I don't have any that's helpful for leaders. It may not be. But that's kind of how we see it as a, as a magazine.
Chris Bright 20:07
No, I think that that really is helpful. And I think that, that having that broad perspective and you know, when you pick up the magazine, you're going to have something that's going to, okay, I'm going to see things for a different perspective and see what what's happening in, in the body of Christ across the UK and internationally as well. And I think it gives that broader perspective, which is so helpful and so needed, because it's so easy to get stuck in your own, you know, in your own church or in your own denomination. And just in you, you forget what else is out there in the end the breadth of, of the Body of Christ, which is a great thing that we all need to know. I'm wondering about what I think I'm thinking about is, and I think that it's something that you could probably speak into with your role is how are you seeing culture change? And specifically, I think it's, how is it starting to change the church, I think view your perspective as an editor, and you're seeing lots of different opinions, and you're commenting on, you know, different topics, news items, and popular culture and all those kind of things. How are you seeing what shifts are you seeing in culture at the moment? And how is that affecting the church?
Sam Hailes 21:18
Wow, another great question.
Chris Bright 21:21
I don't go for small questions!
Sam Hailes 21:22
Were gonna just your eyes down. Chris. I'm really uncomfortable, because normally I'm on your side of the microphone asking the questions. Now I've got actually provide some answers. Normally, I just ask people, these things, and similar questions what you're asking great questions. Well, well, we've spoken for a good 20 minutes now, and I've not mentioned the dreaded COVID. Have I so let's let's bring COVID Let's go cuz I think I think if we're talking about church and culture in the future, we kind of can't not talk about that. And, you know, I just I should say, at this point, Chris, you know, you guys have been doing some fantastic work on this. And, you know, you've written some some great articles for us premier Christianity on these topics, and I'm keen to hear more keen to hear your view them give mine to be honest. But I guess the way I'd say it is the big change has been online church, isn't it? That's been the big shift. And, again, just to be honest, if if people had come to me before COVID, and said, you know, I'll be really honest, even if someone comes to me and said, Look, I'm disabled, I'm housebound, I can't get there. Can you start live streaming your service? If I'm being really honest, I don't think I would have actioned it. Because I just be thinking, well, the resource that requires for one or two people, I know, that's an awful thing to admit. Or look at what happened with COVID. When I was able bodied folk couldn't do it, we suddenly made the effort. And now we've got a you know, I do think for the for the disabled community in particular, we've been asking for this for years, and leaders like me, not actioning it, we just prove actually, we can. So you know, that's been a huge shift, not just for those who can't physically get to the building, I think it's been a huge shift for our evangelism. So I've spoken to people in our local church who have because we're now meeting in person again, we're actually doing a hybrid of live stream and in person. And I've spoken to people who said, Oh, yeah, this is my first Sunday with you in person, but I've been watching you online for the past weeks or months. And that was always our prayer, right when lockdown happened, and we're live stream God, please. We pray local people would see us on YouTube and, you know, we'd have impact and and I think God has has answered that prayer. But in terms of the future, I don't know. I'd love to hear your view on this. But I think the jury's out on whether this is a big long term change that from now on churches will embrace digital and live stream or their services. Or will people start to say, you know, what, in person is so much better? And now that we can most of us get back to in person? Let's not do the live stream stuff because you know, it is time consuming or expensive or take people.
Chris Bright 23:56
Well, thank you so much for listening to this week's podcast. This is only halfway through the podcast, and you can listen to the conversation by joining our members podcast, just go to our website, www.hp dot church, and you can sign up to our members podcast at any cost costs the price of one coffee per month, so it's well worth doing. So why don't get a coffee, listen to the podcast. We'll see you again for this podcast next week. So bye for now.
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