Chris Bright 0:06
Welcome to the thinking church podcast with me, Chris bright. Every week, I'll be speaking with a church leader, ministry strategy and getting to grips with not just what they do, but the thinking behind why they do it. So without further ado, let's get on with the show. Well, my guest today is Hannah Williamson. For nearly two decades, Hannah has served in the local church in various roles, including as youth pastor, and more recently as an executive pastor down in Dagenham, Hanna now to churches across the country with her ministry echo, helping empower people, coach and mentor leaders bring health to churches and partner to bring organisational clarity, Hannah, it's so great to have you back on the podcast again. Thanks for joining us,
Hannah Williamson 0:55
So good to be with you. Thanks for having me.
Chris Bright 0:58
Awesome. Well, I'm looking forward to getting into this today because I've got loads of questions that I'd like to, to ask you around coaching, and all that kind of thing. And just we'd love to get your perspective, what you're seeing all those kinds of things. So let's dive into this. You spend a lot of time coaching youth ministries. Let's start with some of them, maybe less good news. But what was some of the problems that you're finding that you're brought in to help with when you're coaching youth ministries at the moment?
Hannah Williamson 1:28
Yeah. So when I was going to think about this, to be honest, I don't know whether I define it as necessarily a problem or like a challenge. But there seems to be a lot of youth pastors, that would have been my age, so mid to late 30s, and moving into other areas of church. And so lots of younger leaders coming through at the moment, which obviously is a really exciting thing, and a really good thing that's taking place. But at the same time could be a challenge, I think because we're kind of at that point where we're coming out of COVID. So there's so much change anyway, I just think that's quite an interesting challenge for churches at the moment. There's definitely lots of churches looking for youth pastors, and not necessarily being able to find them, which is obviously a problem. But yeah, I think some of the challenge around that is just integrating new, younger leaders into the life of the church or into a staff team and sort of how that kind of looks like and how maybe a pastor might not have tight time necessarily to try and help integrate those younger leaders in because they're so taken up with other stuff. So I'm kind of Yeah, that's definitely one of the things I'm sort of seen as a bit of a challenge at the moment for churches how they do that, which I guess is why it's kind of cool what I've been able to do, because I'm I'm able to sort of help that transition be a little bit smoother than maybe what it could have been. So yeah, definitely that another thing I would say another challenge would be lots of youth pastors with a sort of lack of confidence really coming out of the last two years where probably things have completely stopped, or they've hardly had any kind of youth ministry taking place. So realising Oh, my goodness, I've got to actually rebuild from scratch again, and haven't done that for a long time. So how on earth do I do that? So I think again, just the challenge, really have been able to encourage younger leaders and say, Actually, no, you can bring fresh vision, this is a great opportunity for you to build from from the ground up. You don't have to do what was done before you've got a clean slate. So again, really good challenge, I think but can be difficult for leaders. And then I think the final thing I thought was just the ongoing challenge, which I think is always a case maybe in church as well as youth, but getting the mix between non church, young people and church, young people, and finding really in a lot of youth ministries that they veer towards one or the other. So there's youth ministries, where all they have is church kids that come in, which obviously is great, and we need to provide for for those young people, but they're just not reaching out to young people who've never heard about Jesus, which is really sad. And so I think that's a real challenge, or it can flip the other way, where youth ministries are all about reaching out, but they've got all these kids in the church that actually are not building the relationship with Jesus. So trying to help, I guess churches get a little bit of a mix in between.
Chris Bright 4:29
Yeah, it'd be interested to dive into that, because I've seen both of those where you have, you know, just the classic, you know, church kids are there and they're maybe they're growing in their faith. And that is that's good in some sense. And then you have the other side where it's, you know, it might be kids that have come youth that have come from maybe it's the local area, and they've been brought into church and often that can be much more of a kind of, I guess, like a youth centre environment. So it'll be a lot of games, but this is hardest, you know? harder to see where the discipleship comes in? How would you get that? How would you coach people to get that balance between the two? What would you say if that say, let's take the, you know, a church that maybe got all people just from all non Christian youth coming in? And it's more of a youth club? How would you try and transition that to become much more subject based? What would you do?
Hannah Williamson 5:25
I mean, I think there's a few things that have sort of got to be understood. The first thing is that it is messy. And I think sometimes people want things to be nice and okay, and not too wild. And my experience is, if you're going to have the two together is completely wild. So I think it's just saying to youth pastors like That's okay, if it's a little bit like that. And I think the other thing is just understanding what discipleship is. And, for me, I think discipleship doesn't just begin when someone becomes a Christian, I think it starts way, way, way before that. And so I think changing the mindset of the leader to say, actually, when you have a group of non church, kids in your youth club, or wherever you want to call it, actually, your role is to disciple them to take them on a journey of faith, to the point where they have obviously find Jesus and then grow in their faith. And then I think trying to get some of those church kids actually empowered and involved in being part of making that happen. And I think just trying to see a little bit of synergy, I guess, like that is meant to be together. And obviously, it's a it's, I think, hard work. It's not like something that just happens naturally. And you're obviously trying to bring both sides together in some ways. But I think if you can empower young people from your church to say, actually, this is a great opportunity for us to really reach out to people come and be part of it. I think, yeah, that builds a really strong and healthy youth ministry.
Chris Bright 6:58
The other thing I'm starting to notice with Youth Ministries is all the new youth leaders that are coming up, you know, that it tends to be youth leaders tend to sort of sway pretty young, on the scale of things, because that means the augury sort of in the Gen Z area, all of the millennial youth leaders now pastoring churches, or moving into that role or taking up, you know, assistant pastor roles. And that means that we've got a generational shift as well between, you know, it's not between the same generation, but between two different generations now. How is that dynamic starting to play out? Because now you know, what you're seeing is a millennial pastor who's looking at the Gen Z, you feed and going, or I'm not quite all, that's a bit different for me. And obviously, it was exactly the same when they were a youth leader, and they had a Gen X in front of them. How is it? How have you seen that sort of dynamic being played out?
Hannah Williamson 7:51
Yeah, I mean, I guess what I'm noticing more is probably there's a bigger gap between the generation above me so above millennials, and Gen Zed. So there's a there's that gap in between there. And Millennials generally, I think, are trying to think, How can I actually help this younger generation to develop, whereas I think there's a little bit of tension maybe between the generation above because it's such a wide gap. Because I guess, for us, things like the use of technology, that's been part of our world. So even though we've learned that, I mean, I remember getting my first phone when I was 14, you know, not younger than that, but we've been part of that world. So I think there is a bit more of an understanding, whereas like, the generation above us, I think that's hard. So I'm really passionate about trying to bridge the gap. And I think for millennials, it's actually important for us to be that bridge and help that those transitions happen, and really empower the younger generation to do that. And I think from what I'm seeing, maybe because we've always wanted to be empowered, whether we have or not, you know, either way, really, so I think we're saying actually for the for the younger generation, let's do everything we can to empower them. So I think it's a really exciting time because I think, yeah, there could be more open conversations to be able to help the younger generation come through, that's my hope anyway.
Chris Bright 9:21
Yeah, absolutely. And now you're a coach and you come in you coach different ministries. But coaching, I think is something that's become a little bit of a, I guess, maybe a lost art in the church world, and maybe it's something we need to discover a little bit. I wonder what could churches do in you know, just within their local context to to coach their leaders, their emerging leaders better? And maybe let's start with kind of like what are the what are the qualities of a coach maybe that's probably a good place to start. What What qualities do you need if you if you if you're seeing a young leader or an emerging leader, and you want to bring coaching to them. What are some of the qualities that you need?
Hannah Williamson 10:02
Yeah, well, I have to say, I'm like learning all the time on this, because I'm no pro or anything. So. But these are some of the things I'm learning is just like to ask the right questions. And I think a lot of the time, there's a bit of a confusion between, I guess, mentoring and coaching. And so lots of people veer more towards the mentoring, which would will be like, I'm going to give you advice on something, which is great. But I find that often, if you're asking the right questions, you're helping someone come to the conclusion themselves, so that they're probably more likely to take on the advice because they've discovered it for themselves. So I think definitely that sort of art of asking the right questions. And I know, for me, personally, I'm trying to get better at this so that when I'm with leaders, I can think, okay, what is going to be the best questions for me to ask to get the most out of this time I've got with this person who I admire who I want to learn from. And so I think, yeah, definitely, asking the right questions to draw out the right things is, is really, really important. I think, identify, understand, and that will involve itself in our conversation, to apologise and try to be coached or something. Yeah, I think the other thing is just identifying where the persons are, and, and how you can help them, which isn't necessarily what you're given to them. So I think sometimes we take on this role of like, Oh, I've got to offer all the advice and all the support to this person I'm helping, but half the time, the best thing you could do is point them in the right direction. And so I think, again, that's just something I'm trying to do with the people that I'm coaching is identify, Okay, that's an area where maybe they need growth in, I can't necessarily offer that. So who can I connect them with? To help them do that? And I guess, again, it's just something that that was done for me, which I'm so grateful for all the time when I speak to a mentor, or a coach, and I just, you know, say I'm trying to work through this issue, and they're like, whoa, you should definitely meet. So and so actually, that's even more helpful necessarily than the than the person who's coaching me. So I think definitely, that's a another thing. And then one thing I'm really passionate about is just listening to what the person saying, which we know is an obvious thing, but also listening behind what they're not saying. And so we always know that if you're getting into a maybe a tricky conversation, or it's a little bit of a difficult conversation, sometimes people don't say exactly what they need to say. So you have to be really good at listening and right, asking the right questions to draw it out. Out of people.
Chris Bright 12:43
Yeah, no, that's great. I'm trying to think how we can get churches to be to have coaching as kind of a foundational part of our foundation of how they operate, because I think every young emerging leader, but I think every every leader needs some kind of coaching to some extent. So I mean, so what could churches do to maybe better model that maybe, or maybe some things they can put in place that would just help coaching sort of flourish more within their church.
Hannah Williamson 13:13
I guess, just trying to create environments where those things can can happen, is really important. And I'm not sure that happens so much in churches, like you're saying, and so even along the line of one thing I'm noticing is in larger churches, there's often good structures with line management. And I think for those line managers, even for them, understanding how to coach the person that they're line managing, I mean, I'm quite passionate about this, that line management isn't I think, in the church world isn't just about, you know, let's just go through a list of jobs you've done and make sure you've done your jobs. Actually, I think there should be an element of development in that. And I think sometimes we don't always help those line managers to know how to help the person that they line managing. We just expect them to kind of get on with it. And so I think, yeah, definitely, in that sense, helping that. But then on the flip side, I found in maybe smaller sized churches, there's not structures like that. So maybe they take a younger leader on and just expect that younger leaders sort of get on with it and hope, hope for the best really, but I think actually creating an environment or creating spaces where there is coaching that goes on or facilitating there or bringing people in to help us learn how to better do their I think we're so be so beneficial to the church moving forward and for the younger generation, I guess.
Chris Bright 14:39
Yeah, I think I think that's really true. And I think there's, I think churches tend to sway between these two stores have sort of under management of people where it's like, we just, you know, just get on with it, do your thing. And you know, we'll just leave you to it, but there's no Support, there's no coaching and then they just the mistakes get made. And then there's no one there they, you know, you can't learn from it because you got no one to process process that way. And obviously the other extreme is the over management, the micromanagement, where it's everything is you know, to the tiniest degree is, is managed, it's coached through and it's not even coached, I guess is, you know, it's expected on certain things, and it's got to be a certain way and a certain things are done, and it doesn't give the person any, any room to you to grow to develop. So I think I think coaching seems to sit perfectly between those two stores about giving enough room but also giving enough management and coaching that to ask those questions. And I think that's it seems like it fits perfectly there.
Hannah Williamson 15:47
And in the churches, you've worked with Chris, what would be like the what have you seen the most over management of under management?
Chris Bright 15:55
I think under management is is more usual for me. I don't know what your what you've seen in your work, I see. Where it's normally most people are just so grateful that someone's willing to do something, but it's almost like it's like the weight off their mind. And it's almost like they can like compartmentalise if I can get that word, right, they compartmentalise it, and say right that they're sorting that. So I don't have to think about that now. But actually, now the that's when it always got to start again. Because now you've got to have the coaching conversation. So that's mostly I'm seeing that kind of side of things, you get a few you get a few odd occasions where someone's sort of micromanaging. But most of the time, I'm seeing the exact opposite. What What about for you? Are you seeing similar?
Hannah Williamson 16:42
Definitely the same. And I think what I've noticed as well is the younger generation are crying out for people to develop them. They like we do want to learn, but sometimes I find that people just don't know how to kind of manage that or how to help that or I guess, coming back to the coaching, how to coach that through. And so yeah, just happy that someone's getting on with it. Whereas this younger leaders like please help me.
Chris Bright 17:10
Yeah, that's right. So what I'm wondering about when it comes to your approach to coaching, and those kind of things, how would that would that differ? department to department? Does it change how you're going to, you know, if you're going to be interacting with a youth leader, is that going to be you're going to have a different approach to coaching compared to maybe someone in a welcome, you know, welcome department or a worship team or something like that? How does it differ department to department view?
Hannah Williamson 17:42
I think so. I mean, I think there's the same principles across the board. I mean, one of the things that I've been doing in the role that I'm doing now is going into a church and in a particular area, sort of doing a review of where they're at, which it really involves asking a lot of questions of different team members, and then collating all those answers, and trying to work out where are the areas that need growth? So again, I guess that's in some ways, kind of like coaching, because I'm trying to help them come up with the answers of where they need to improve. And to be honest, that doesn't matter what department it would be in whether it be in a worship team, or welcome team or or youth ministry. It's just trying to draw out of the people, okay, these are the these are the areas that need need some development, and then on from that, I would then take those things, and then maybe offer some advice, or again, offer some questions to help the church think okay, these are some things to think through to move, you know, to move this area on. So yeah, again, I don't think there's probably differences is the same principles, obviously, how you approach, maybe a younger person, so an older person is going to be different, of course. But I think generally across the board is the same.
Chris Bright 19:03
Yeah, maybe there's probably worth digging into some of these principles. And maybe there's some strategies that's there as well. If there's a church listening to this and thinking, okay, what are some things I need to think about when I'm, you know, starting to coach, any department, you know, any department leader or any, you know, what are those? What are those principles that I need to think about?
Hannah Williamson 19:24
Yeah, I mean, I think first is asking some honest questions. And I think I found even in being in church ministry, that sometimes we have areas of church life that have been running for years, but we're too scared to honestly look at whether they're working or not. And sometimes we kind of, yeah, I don't know, maybe it feels a bit of a failure on our part if we're the person leading that department. Whereas I think if we could just get to the point where we say actually, let's sit down and honestly look at, you know, how many people is this project or department right? chin. Is this department really making a difference? Do we need some change in this area? How could we better engage with people, whatever the questions may be, I think doing that initial like, really being honest review without, you know, get taken it personally or anything like that. I think that would actually be so helpful as a sort of first step to help you look at a particular area. And I guess even having some external people come in and comment on that, or even other people from your church. So I was listening to the other day to a Craig Groeschel podcast and he was saying how when he does his preaches he gets like a whole range of people in to comment on what he's about to preach, and says, you know, tell me what things you'd cut out if I had to cut out two minutes of this. And I thought how incredibly like humble. Firstly, is that, but how helpful that you're willing to have other people coming in? And you're secure enough to be able to do that. So I think definitely for churches, that would be a first starter of doing that.
Chris Bright 21:07
Yeah, that's right. So maybe that's starting to then lead on to the thought of sort of what does health then look like when you're when you're going into looking at a ministry in depth, and you're looking for those, you know, what's good, what needs to be changed? What the signs of health that you're looking for? And obviously that means then what's the signs of dis healthy or unhealthy, not dis health on health? So we start with those signs of health, what the signs are health that you're looking for in a ministry?
Hannah Williamson 21:37
I mean, I guess if anyone's asked someone to come in and comment on what they're doing, that's a sign of health in itself. Because they're obviously open to being able to develop and grow. And I think, if you're not willing to do that, obviously, but that would show something. So I think, yeah, that that level of humility and teachability is like definitely a sign of health. I think if the area or department is is actively seeking to develop other people to be in the roles that they're offering, and actively developing younger leaders, obviously, that's my passion. But I think that's really important, because they're obviously looking a little bit more future wise, and saying, actually, how can we build some sustainability for this department? So I think that's, yeah, that's definitely a sign of health. I think Yeah. Again, coming back to those like honest questions, if they're, like, you know, really open minded to look at how can we develop something or move it from from this place to this place, then again, yeah, definite sign of health. And I think as well, it's not all about the leader. And so they're, they're often looking at the people around and, and always, you know, talking or about what they're doing so it's not just about that one person. I think that's that definitely shows.
Chris Bright 23:11
Well, thank you so much for listening to this week's podcast. This is only halfway through. And you can listen to the conversation by joining our members podcast, just go to our website, www dot thinking dot church and you can sign up to our members podcast that only costs the price of one coffee per month as well worth doing. So why don't get a coffee, listen to the podcast and we'll see you again for this podcast next week. So bye for now.
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