Chris Bright 0:06
Welcome to the thinking church podcast with me, Chris Bright. Every week I'll be speaking with a church leader about ministry strategy and getting to grips with not just what they do, but the thinking behind why they do it. So without further ado, let's get on with the show. Well, my guest this week is dr. john Andrews. John has been in full time church leadership since 1987. Though called to the UK, john has ministered in over 30 nations around the world with a passion to equip and inspire leaders as well as empower followers of Jesus into effective lifestyle and service. JOHN as pastors in churches in hovercraft, West Yorkshire, in in Rotherham and has served on the team at renewal Christian Centre in Solihull, john has also served as the principal of the British Assemblies of God Bible College, and now travels extensively engaging his passion to teach the Word of God inspiring a generation of Jesus followers to love and serve their world. And he's through online. He's been definitely doing that online through COVID, as well, as a graduate of Mattersey Hall. He also holds a master's degree in Pentecostal and charismatic studies from Sheffield, Sheffield University, and a doctorate from the University of Wales. He's authored 12 books, including 252, learning how to grow on purpose and extravagant when worship becomes a lifestyle. JOHN, it's so great to have you back on the podcast.
Dr John Andrews 1:37
It's fantastic to be back. Thank you so much for having me. It's a great, great privilege and a great joy to see you and to connect with you again. So thank you so much, bless ya.
Chris Bright 1:48
Brilliant. Well, well, let's dive into it. Because I wanted to speak to you today because I've been blogging through the book of Acts. I think somehow I started it and it was one Sunday morning, I was sat out on the decking, and I thought, you know what, I'm going to blog through the book of Acts. And so far, I'm up to chapter four, and eight blogs in and this is gonna take a long time to get to so this might be become like a life's work or something. But what I've realised really quickly is that there is a lot of things that I need to have a look through. And the reason that I mean, maybe it's probably worth before we crack into some questions on some topics is, it was unpack why I started doing it. And it was an idea, but it came from the fact that, you know, thinking church is all to do with church strategy. And there's so many times I've heard over the years, I've been a Christian all my life, and hearing that we need to get back to how the early church did church, or we need to find a biblical way of doing church, I was intrigued to find out Well, let's investigate that because I think we, a lot of people have said it. But and they have this mind that there's a kind of a manual of how to do church. But is that is that the right way of looking at the book of Acts is a manual of how to run church?
Dr John Andrews 3:11
Oh, that's a great question, I think and well done for digging into the book of Acts, because it is a great book. I think it's certainly Chris a window into the beginnings and the development of the church, I think you have to be careful how to read the book of Acts. So remembering that this is a story that's being told, penned by Dr. Luke, some of the stuff we're getting firsthand from his eyewitness account, and some of that stuff is clearly passed on from reliable sources in his own words. So what you're getting really is an insight into the development of the church and with it, it's some areas, it's very clear on what we may call its ecclesiology. It's understanding what the church is. And then you have some profound insights into its struggles into some things. It's not doing so well. It's not just an account of the church, going from sort of zero to the heart of the Roman Empire in 30 to 40 years. It's also a church that is struggling with internal ideas, sometimes even with prejudice, sometimes with Bible issues and theology issues that it's grappling with. So as long as we understand when we're reading the book of Acts, what we're not reading is a well polished ecclesiological manual. What you're getting is a story raw, vulnerable, honest, but not absolutely complete. It's clear that Dr. Luke is not covering every issue. It is clear he summarises some big events. And it is also clear that there's a whole bunch of stuff he's leaving out, because sort of by the middle of the book, he's really zeroing in on Life with Paul and and that particular expression of it. So as long as you understand that, that you're not looking at an a desired of how to do church, but what you are getting are phenomenal insights that may teach us what is good. I'd also warn us some of the pitfalls, then I think an approach to the book of Acts is absolutely essential for any Christian leader and and anyone serious about seeking to establish church in the 21st century.
Chris Bright 5:35
Yeah, and I wonder it's this one, I wonder if we can dive into some of the some of the sort of overarching strategy of of Acts, is that, can you? Is there a way to be able to plot the can we plot the strategy of what the church is doing? Is there a strategy in place? Or, you know, are they just kind of figuring it out as they go? Or can you sense that there is some, you know, there's some thinking behind this, or, you know, even if you want to say, you know, leading by the Holy Spirit, but there, you know, there's still a, there's still some kind of plan that's being being worked out?
Dr John Andrews 6:10
Yeah, I think it's a bit of both, I think when you are looking at the early chapters of Acts, there's a sense in which this thing's just accelerating, it's exploding. You know, you're we're getting numbers in the 1000s, who are in some way or another responding on I think, by Acts chapter six, for example, we've reached a place where you've got some serious organisational thinking going on. So acts 242, they devoted themselves and you get a sense of what the community starts to look like, some of the big ideas that they're starting to build on and structure, but you're still getting a lot of fluidity between the Jewishness of this new group the way and you know, this, the sense that it's, it's supposed to be open to the Gentile world, which it's starting to struggle with, there's this interplay between houses, and the temple. They don't seem to have buildings in the way that we see them and understand them today. So there's a huge fluidity there. And then, of course, by chapter six, you've got such growth within the church, that you've got massive internal strife around, can I say carefully, racial issues within a sort of a Jewish Christian developing worldview. So you've got clashes between her break widows and Hellenistic widows, simply because of the distribution of food, which points to this, the sheer scale this thing is growing up. And then of course, we get the sort of explosion with Stephen. And chapters six, seven and eight, we get this introduction, this incredible young man who actually helps distribute the food more accurately and professionally. But then he also gets engaged in an incredible sermon, which becomes the touch point becomes the catalyst, the tipping point for a persecution that breaks out in the church and essentially scatters a largely Jewish contingent of the way into the rest of the world. And that's where it starts to collide with the Gentiles. So if we're looking for strategy early on, it's hard to really get your teeth into that. I think what you've got is a very, very dynamic Jerusalem, Christian community, I think you've got a very strong Judean Christian community, I think you've got a real reluctance to reach out beyond the borders of Judea. There's no strategic evidence that the church was doing that. And it's done until persecution happens, that starts to happen. And then it's when we get into Paul, or Saul, if you like. And Barnabas, we start to get a sense of strategic thinking around what is going on. And we really start to lean into an idea of planting Christian communities everywhere, where there aren't any, if possible, out of Jewish communities. But if that's not possible, straight into Gentile communities, and we also get a real commitment to discipleship to training, to development and equipping. So so they really start to develop end to this sort of sense of strategy. As you hit sort of the middle of the book, you're getting a sense of the church seems to really know what it's doing in terms of reaching the regions beyond planting Christian communities, and training and equipping followers of the way. And I think that's a developmental idea. bit messy at the beginning, it feels like that. Anyway, it may have been not so messy, but it feels like that at the beginning, and much more, it feels much more strategic towards the end, which is maybe pointing to the idea that part of this they were sort of learning as they went along, and other things they were much more comfortable with. So again, helps us to read the book of acts as a developing narrative. Yeah,
Chris Bright 10:01
I'd like to dive into the the classic 2:42 passage, which is, I think it's the most classic scripture, you know, when, when everyone says, you know, "let's get back to the book of Acts" and that kind of thing, and I hear it a lot. I do hear I've heard it a lot. And that what they're referring to is this passage here. Now, I've sort of researching this, I was looking into this, and I was reading about first century synagogues. And I found a bit of a correlation between that and Acts 2:42, There seem like this some kind of, you know, there's development for sure from the synagogue. But am I missing something here? Or is what's going on in this passage in Acts 2:42? Is, is there something? Is there something brand new? Or is there something that's kind of left out of the the current understanding?
Dr John Andrews 10:53
Well, I again, I think it's a bit of both, I think, verse 41, really helps us the next chapter two, because it tells us that there's another big influx numerically into this new community into this sector as it's being referred to, or followers of the way. And then what you're having to get as a result of that is a sense of, we need to start organising. Now imagine, you know, I mean, we've all experienced this, suddenly, you're thrust into something, you have to start organising, what you tend to do is default to ideas you already know. So is there anything in the Jewish world that would help them organise communities of believers better? Oh, I know, yeah, synagogue, there we are. So So actually, it's not a surprise that what you're getting, especially in the early Jewish communities are largely Jewish communities that become followers of the way, it's really not surprising that you're leaning into some really well worn ideas that they already know. They know how to do community, they know how to share, they know how to disciple, they know how to build confessional letters that are liturgy, they know how to really instil ideas into communities. In fact, the synagogue system really grew out of exile. And this idea that they couldn't go to the temple, they couldn't even go to their own land. And the synagogue really developed as many communities, many temples that would help both preserve the Torah, and develop a sense of community around the Word of God, and around our identity in God. So So what you're getting, I think, is a little bit of a mix of all of that. And in fact, if you also widen it out a bit, you'll see early Christians, early followers of Jesus also still going to the temple, they're still using the sort of patterns of Temple prayer, for example, to follow their own prayer. So we have that annex three, where the man is healed to get beautiful at the art of prayer, so so you get a sense that what's happening is, they're clearly bringing some new stuff in here and the apostles teaching of acts 242 leans into that, we're clearly they are routing, their, their theology under ecclesiology, much more on Jesus interpretation of the Torah, or Jesus fulfilment of the Torah than they are on Moses, per se. And that's a new development, but things like prayers, things that fellowship in the in the truest sense, the idea of, you know, supporting one another through, these are well worn ideas within a Jewish community, and therefore would be naturally developed. And what's really interesting is an Acts 2:42. If you go all the way down to verse 47, you're getting a mix of what things like structural approach. So there's things that are common on they devoted themselves to the apostles teaching the breaking of bread, which could refer to both sort of the Last Supper on just meals together, prayers on and fellowship, and then you get this commentary on it, that they, if anyone had need, they help one another, they supported each other, they share it in each other. That's a very, very Hebraic idea. And the idea that your faith could somehow ignore the community needs of your brothers and sisters is an alien concept to to Torah, and an alien concept to good Jewish believers. So there's a natural lead into this. And so when we read 242 onwards, we I think there's some patterns we could follow, I think, apostles teaching fellowship, breaking a bread prayer, I mean, I think they travel anywhere. And and I think you're also getting expressions of real Judaism, the culture or Jewish culture that is not travelling to a new trajectory under the guidance of the teaching of Jesus in the way and there are four new things are developing, as well as perhaps leaning into older ideas.
Chris Bright 14:55
Yeah, it certainly says, when I was writing a blog on it, it definitely seemed to me that... I described them as supercharged synagogues. You know, and I think what you're is hitting on that the fact that synagogues were built around the teaching of Moses, but this is the teaching of Jesus and the teaching of Jesus is, "You've heard it said, but now I say to you", and it's going up one level further. So it's not it's not just for it's not just for be charitable, it's like, we will sell stuff if we need to, we're going out is everything's to me seems to be that kind of one step further. And, you know, when I was looking into first century synagogues, it was Yes, though, they looked into, I've got some things here, they, they would have political meetings, and they would have worship there. And they would have, they would, you know, give to the poor, but it just always seems like there's, they're going that one, there's that one step further, where they're taking it back, and not just taking it to the teachings of Moses, but the teachings of Jesus. So it's, it's almost taking what, what's the community that you know? And how can how just the teachings of Jesus change what we know. And that's what I was trying to think about? How did you put that into today? Because, you know, we have aspects of community that we know, you know, even from, you know, established churches or community centres or, you know, go to watch football matches those, there's essences of community. And is that something? Is there something that we can learn from that, but maybe it's not quite the kind of what I was grew up with what people saying, you know, their kind of hippie commune style thing that kind of people said, Oh, you know, you've got to sell your property. I don't think that's what they're getting at. It seems like there's something a little bit a little bit more attainable.
Dr John Andrews 16:29
Yeah, I think so I think what you've got in, for example, by the time we hit Acts chapter four, and, and a little bit further, as you've got a sense that the parameters, the beliefs, the ideas of this new community of the way is really starting to gather traction. But remember, they're looking for models that that actually are going to help carry this, this new community. And there are some well worn ideas within their world, in terms of how to do that community, and how to help one another and support one another. And remember that you use the word supercharged, or I remember, of course, the other massive element that's going on here is this empowerment of this community, by the person of the Holy Spirit. So you've now got two incredible elements that are really at the heart of this change, you've got an understanding that Jesus is not only a way to read Moses, but Jesus is the fulfilment of Moses. That's a radical idea. And in fact, ultimately, that would become a bit of a clash in the largely Jewish church, because some would say, Well, no, you to become a Christian, you've got to go through Moses to come to Christ, Paul starts to argue, no, no, you can come straight to Jesus, you don't have to go through Moses. So so this is a radical idea. They're not just they're not just reading Moses differently. Jesus is the fulfilment of Moses, he is the fulfilment of the Tanakh, the whole of the Scriptures, and then secondly, they are empowered by the Spirit. So So imagine, then, that that new sense of, if you like, theology, alongside this empowerment by the Holy Spirit, this pneumatology, then this pushes something into this community, which is very different. So these great ideas, which many of which are rooted in Torah night, as you say, become sort of supercharged or they become a different focus, appreciate. And of course, it does teach us that, that engagement with the kingdom of God does two amazing things as far as our culture is concerned. One is a challenges our culture. So there's some things about my culture, which need to change. And actually, I can't just put a Christian jacket on it and sort of sex it up a little bit, and sort of say, Okay, I've got Jesus. So it's okay to have that part of my culture, as long as Jesus is sort of in the mix. There are some things in my culture, my upbringing, even my religious background and culture, that are challenged by the kingdom of God. And we have to accept that. And I think you start to see that in the book of Acts, you start to see wonderful Jewish believers really getting uncomfortable with the idea of Gentiles coming into the church without going through Moses. So that's one example of challenge of culture. But then the other thing that the Bible or the kingdom of God does brilliantly is that it can also absorb and transform our culture. So in other words, there could be things within our culture, that the kingdom doesn't just challenge in a sense and say we have to change or eradicate, but actually the kingdom can jump on to and bring a sense of life and health within that. So for example, today, we're having all phenomenal conversations about about what does online community look like? What does what does can we do online church, for example, that conversation wasn't relevant 50 years ago, because culturally, technologically It's just not not possible. No, we're having theological conversations, partly because of the cultural developments in our world. And so we're asking questions. Okay, where does the theology of the kingdom and the theology of the church fit with, for example, technology Canada to marry together? Or is it a case of challenge? Or is it a case of adaptation and change? And I think that's a great example. So So it's, it's, it's recognising the values of the kingdom, challenge our culture, and sometimes we have to change in order for the kingdom to come. And then sometimes they sort of help adopt our culture, make the best of our culture, use the elements of our culture for the glory of God provided provided and there's a big proviso provided it doesn't mean fundamentally compromising the values and ethics of that kingdom. So if I'm imbibing my culture, and I'm having to compromise my belief system in order to imbibe that culture, then that that's a no, no. But if there are elements of my culture that can be redeemed by the kingdom of God, by following Jesus in the way, then why not we should use all of that in order to present Jesus to our world.
Chris Bright 21:16
Yeah, I was until I was working through this morning on the beginning of Acts chapter four. And what really struck me at the beginning of that chapter was just how offensive the gospel was. And I sometimes start to think about thinking about how sometimes, I'm not suggesting that we should become horrible people, but that's when you live out the gospel, that there it can be offensive, and maybe that's something that we've lost maybe in a Western society, is that that ability for the gospel to be offensive? Not Yeah, don't hear what I'm not saying, I'm not suggesting placards and anything like that, or shouting. But there is something that the idea of it could be, should be a bit more as you create a strong reaction.
Dr John Andrews 22:03
Exactly. I think there's a difference between being obnoxious and offensive in the way we do things, and people being offended, or challenged or uncomfortable with what we actually believe. So if people are being put off my face, because I'm, you know, a muppet, because I'm behaving appallingly. Because my behaviour is that at every level, unacceptable, then that's nothing to do with the gospel has to do with me, not getting my brain in gear, and not actually taking control of my personality and character. And over the years, I have seen really bad behaviour, really bad behaviour on behalf of Christ excused. On the basis of, well, the gospel offends people. Absolutely. It does offend people when we get really down to it. And when you can see that in the life of Jesus, over and over again, you know, I was reading to Luke 13, Jesus heals the woman on the Sabbath. And it says that the the experts in the law that those who led the synagogue were humiliated by his words, but all the people were delighted by his actions. So there's Jesus in the synagogue literally splitting the cried. But he's, he's not going out of his way to be obnoxious. Anybody can be obnoxious. And we've had some controversy this week, even in terms of our political arena, where senior politicians describing other politicians with words that if I'd have used that in front of my mother, my mother would have probably put me on over her knee. So so it's, this is unacceptable if people are going to be offended at your ideas, pay. Look, there's very little we can do about that. But if people are offended, because we're just being stupid, because we're not behaving well, then then that's something we've got to change. Jesus did come to bring a sword, and the sword was the Sword of Truth that would divide people, but he didn't come to destroy people. He didn't come to humiliate people and he didn't come to unnecessarily polarise people. Society is polarised enough with a our behaviour making it easier to hit Jesus or easier to reject the church. So I would appeal to Christians, I would appeal to leaders, listen, be passionate, be clear. That's be men and women who are able to stand up and defend the ideas of Bible and gospel and Jesus as Jesus followers. But that's do it in a way that actually is not hurting the very message so that people are not turning away from it because of us. But they're turning away from it. If they do that, because of it. And then that that's there's nothing we can do it but that's the way it is. And that's the way it will always be. But But when we properly present the gospel, when we really get down to Jesus, and it is Jesus I, in my 34 years of ministry experience when we talk about God generically talk about creating generically talk about nice spiritual ideas generically, it's amazing who you can be friends with in the room, introduce Jesus into the conversation. And he has a an amazing ability to split a room. And it's often that some of the greatest offence is around the claims of Christ, both to us and for us, and on us. So so I think we've got to stay focused on that. Remember, that's that's got to happen. But we don't we don't need to be offensive per se, in order for that to happen.
Chris Bright 25:31
Yeah, no, I think that's really helpful. And getting that distinguish that, like that distinction, right, I think that's gonna be really helpful, because I think sometimes I worry that our 20th 21st century church probably is a little bit too nice, sometimes in its ideas, you know, we can talk about things that don't, that, you know, we're very nice in our presentation, which I think is brilliant, and we should remain that way. But sometimes when we need to allow the gospel to bring that kind of strong reaction, and I think that's gonna be a helpful thing for the church to, to embrace, I think that's what people interestingly, are looking for, they're looking for, you know, narratives that are gonna, they can orient their lives around. And when we don't come with that strong narrative of what the gospel actually talks about. And I think it, it doesn't give people that opportunity to pick up that narrative. But I think when we do is going to create a strong reaction one way or the other. And, and maybe that's something that we're going to have to be more and more increasingly, as we go into our kind of post Christian society, that's something we might have to be more aware of aware of that actually, that, you know, some of what we believe might be offensive to other people, and that's okay. And it was offensive to the early church, it's, it definitely seems, seems that way. And yet,
Dr John Andrews 26:50
for sure. And I would say, you know, it's not just the ideas of Christianity, that there'll be lots of ideas out there that I don't necessarily agree with. It's the way we then present those ideas and the way we engage those ideas, I think one of the things without taking us in a direction we probably don't want to go today. But one of the things I really worry about for this country is a sort of sub culture or sub idea that seems becoming mainstream where actually certain ideas, certain thoughts, certain beliefs, certain opinions are, are even, you know, being questioned, and the the freedom to think, the freedom to express and the freedom to disagree, or the freedom to present your ideas. I mean, they are at the bedrock of our society. I think they're the bedrock of all good biblical thinking. And I get really worried when we're sort of being told what we can and cannot think or what we can and cannot agree with. And if we are going to agree or disagree with it, hi, we can agree or disagree with that. I that's what worries me and I think the next five to 10 years in terms of Hi, we do public conversation on very difficult on potentially divisive conversations, which include faith and followership of Jesus and our views on other things. Because of that, I think that's going to be absolutely fascinating. And maybe defining for the next 50 years, how we do the next five to 10 years. And certainly, I'm an avid social media person. And some of the behaviour on social media, it really does start to worry me in terms of attitude, to difference of opinion, how those opinions are expressed, and how we appropriate ourselves to differences of opinion. And I think the gospel is right in the middle of that. And if we're going to proclaim Jesus clearly, I think we're always going to find ourselves one way or another at the wrong end of some conversations, without without that worrying us or making us paranoid, but it's high society response to that is going to be really, really crucial, both of the social and maybe even a legal level in the best account. so fascinating stuff.
Chris Bright 29:09
Well, thank you so much for listening to this week's podcast. This is only halfway through the podcast, and you can listen to the whole conversation by joining our members podcast, just go to our website, www dot thinking dot church and you can sign up to our members podcast there, it only costs the price of one coffee per month so it's well worth doing. So why not get a coffee, listen to the podcast and learn something new. We will see you again for this podcast next week. So bye for now.
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