Amy Jorden 0:00
Paul's use of language is just so it's so positive, overwhelmingly positive about the gift of singleness and celebrating it so much so that he says, I wish that everybody could be as I am.
Chris Bright 0:19
Hi there. Welcome back to the thinking church podcast. My name is Chris, and I'm the host for today, and today I'm joined on the podcast by two ladies, Amy Jordan and Hannah Williamson. Amy Jordan is the location pastor of one church, Gloucester. Hannah Williamson is a an associate of thinking church. She does a lot of brilliant consultancy work down in London, working really with with youth, but also with church leaders as well. She's absolutely fantastic. And both of them, I asked both of them to join me to talk about singleness. I think this is a really hot topic in the church at the moment, because I think there's things that we can learn as church leaders that will help us look after care for Pastor single people a lot better. So we dive into a conversation about what it's like with single people in your church and maybe some of the things that maybe we've not done so well, and then what we can learn and how we can grow as a result of that. So make sure you listen to that that's coming up in just a second now, before we dive into that, I just want to let you know about a free target market persona sheet that we've got on offer at the moment now, basically a target market. It sounds really businessy, but what it is is helping you discover who is in your location, who's around your church, who's in the mission field that's around your church that you can start to reach. And the idea is it's not there to stereotype or to be derogative in any way. It's there to help you understand people. So it means you've got to do a bit of homework, and you've got to find out who is in my locality, but then you write down what are their attitudes, what their interests, what their opinions, and how can I serve them best with the gospel, with discipleship activities, so that you know that you are really helping people with what they really need, not what you think that they need. So you can download that target market persona sheet. The link is in the description right now onto my conversation with Amy Jordan and Hannah Williamson.
Well, welcome back. I am here today with Hannah Williamson, Hannah is actually you are a associate of thinking church. So you are on our website. You're faced on our website. Hello, Hannah. How are you doing? I'm good. Thank you. Great to be here. Great. And I'm also joined by Pastor Amy Jordan. Amy is the positive one church in Gloucester or location pastor of one church in Gloucester. Amy, welcome. Thank you so much. Great. Well, we're here today to open the topic of singleness and what that has, in terms of the impact that has in the church. So we're going to have a look at it in kind of three parts a day. We're going to look at theology, we're going to look at strategy, and we're going to look at ministry. Now, the reason I've chosen Hannah and Amy, Hannah, you are currently finishing a book on singleness and things like that. What? What's the title of your book? Single minded.
Hannah Williamson 3:14
So it's really aiming at talking to the church about how we can engage more singles.
Chris Bright 3:21
Brilliant. Okay, great, okay, okay, and then Amy, you also you wrote a
dissertation for your masters of theology. Give us a quick overview about about writing that, why you decided to write on that topic.
Amy Jorden 3:40
So, yeah, my dissertation was titled Paul's views on singleness and their relevance to the contemporary church.
And I think the reason that I wanted to focus on that is because probably, from like, personal experience, just interested in the topic. And when you're writing 18,000 words, you want to be interested in what you're interested in what you're writing about, um. But also, I think within well, like Hannah said, within the the church, we've got, I think, a real opportunity to engage with people that are single, and probably lots to learn in that respect as well. So for me, it was like this attempt to try and understand a bit more of the theology around it,
and hopefully have something that could benefit and be a bit of a practical help to people that are single or those that aren't, but want to better support those that are
Chris Bright 4:35
great. Okay, so what we're going to do is we're going to just dive into, firstly, some of the theology of singleness. Amy, you probably I'll come to you first on this one.
When I hear about singleness and the church, what I normally hear is people say, well, the norm is that you're supposed to get married and and singleness is kind of an extent.
Action.
How do you understand singleness? Theologically, you know, we look at Genesis chapter one, not good for man to be alone. But then we've got things that Paul says later on, where he says it's good to be single. How do we make sense of all of that in a church context? Yeah, that's a really good question, which obviously is a huge question.
Amy Jorden 5:26
I think I so in my dissertation, tried to drill down a little bit into in Corinthians, where Paul talks about singleness being a gift, and what does that mean for us? Because often I think people think of it as a gift that they want to return and don't really want to receive. So is it when Paul says talks of singleness as a gift, does that mean that it's a gift for everybody, or just like this supernatural ability that's bestowed upon a few, or is it something that is available to everybody? Was it a gift that was just given for a specific time? He talks about there being so it could have been that there was a social crisis at the time when Paul was writing, and so he said, It's better to be single for now, or is there longevity to it so that the gift of singleness stands indefinitely. So like the duration of the gifts and the question, like the distribution of it, who is it available to? But I think something that's really clear is like the dignity of the gift. So who is so clearly positive about singleness. So I know that the idea of like, whether it's distributed to everybody is controversial, or if it's still available today, is it can be controversial. But what's really clear is the dignity of the gift and the goodness of it. And Paul's use of language is just so it's so positive, overwhelmingly positive about the gift of singleness and celebrating it so much so that he says, I wish that everybody could be as I am. But he talks about it, the practical reasons for the gift of singleness being spared from trouble, being free from concern, serving the Lord with undivided devotion, even thoughts about being happier. And so in one Corinthians, seven, verse 40, and so he's that promotion of or celebration of singleness is in stark contrast to today's culture, where it's seen as second best or something to be endured until you get married. So, yeah, I think there is a real wrestle to be had, I think in terms of how we view singleness then, or a challenge that Paul makes in the often, I think we see it as something that is a negative thing, but poor, but whether that was for that time in particular, or whether it was for But now, when I I would argue that it's it's for now, it's overwhelmingly positive, and I Think so, Paul is a great person to look at. Obviously, Jesus Himself the great person to look at the singleness to that's a very, very brief beginning of an answer there.
Chris Bright 8:32
I know it was a great answer, I think. And because I think starting to unpack this topic and looking at it theologically is a is really, really important, because it informs our theology, always informs our practice at some level, Hannah for you. How do you understand singleness? Theologically, you know, we look at Jesus was single. Paul was single as well. How do you think about singleness from a theological standpoint? Yeah,
Hannah Williamson 9:00
so, I mean, I guess adding on, from what Amy said, one of the explanations where it it describes it as a gift, and that I got was it's a grace endowment to edify the church. And I just remember reading that and just thinking, wow, like my singleness, can edify the church. And I think having grown up in environments where it appeared as if the only option was marriage, and like, if you didn't find someone, there was something maybe wrong with you, I think to see it actually from a different perspective. Just, I don't know, it's just a bit of a relief in some ways. And so, yeah, that's been a real blessing to me. I think one thing is just looking at the passage where Paul speaks about it, he speaks in this one passage about singleness and marriage, and that is something that's like, really stood out to me, that they're, they're kind of of equal measure when they're spoken about. And it got me thinking. In that so often in church, we speak well, most churches speak about marriage and not singleness. But even if we do speak about singleness, it's like a separate topic. And so I've been really challenged that actually, I wonder what it would be like if in a in a sermon, we spoke about the two at the same time, just like Paul did, of equal value, because, obviously he's putting them on the same part together. But so often we elevate marriage more, which I'm I think there's, like many reasons for that, but yeah, I think Yeah. As I've looked at the particularly Paul's writings on it, it has been a bit of a relief to me that he's he's spoken about both with equal measure. Yeah, yeah.
Chris Bright 10:46
And so one of the things I often hear when I hear people talk about Paul's view of singleness is he was only saying this because he had this kind of imminent eschatology. He thought that the, you know, Jesus was returning in his lifetime. So don't bother getting married. Get on with, you know, preaching the gospel. Amy, what do you how do you understand that? What? How do you think that informs it? Do you think that that viewpoint is is right? Because I think that's quite a prevalent viewpoint, that that Paul was only talking that way because he thought Jesus was coming back. But then, of course, we have a similar thing where, especially in Pentecostal circles, that we have a very sort of imology as well. We that it's kind of birthed around that kind of Jesus is coming back soon. How do you think that that kind of eschatological viewpoint informs how we think about singleness. Yeah,
Amy Jorden 11:43
if it, if it's appropriate. I could read a little bit from my dissertation, if that works for it. Yeah, more to think to than me trying to remember. But so the idea that's a before his dramatic encounter on the road to Damascus, that Then Saul would have certainly believed that the kingdom of God would have been established in a great, one, great apocalyptic event. Yet because of Jesus and his encounter with him, Paul now creatively reinterprets Jewish apocalyptism, acknowledging, I don't know if I even said that right, acknowledging that the heavenly inauguration had begun. So I would advocate that, or doesn't just solely look at this definitive future event. But scholars would say, and often agree, that he holds to a partially realized eschatology. So he's judging that the New Kingdom can be experienced here and now. So it's not just then and when, but there's both the now and then. It's that tension that he then lives in. So I think that stands as more of a coherent like demonstration, then, of when he talks about the Holy Spirit being this deposit of what is to come. The Holy Spirit's given to us as this seal, this deposit of what is to come. So he's got this view, then, of the of both a future event, but now we can experience the kingdom of God. So I think in his theology, then you've got that both. And if that makes sense,
Chris Bright 13:21
no, that does make sense. That makes sense, and this is maybe hitting on a bit of a theory that I had. So I'm also studying for a master's in theology at the moment, and I had a I had an assignment, which I was told, when I was marked, I was told it would be more like a PhD than an assignment, and so I might have to do further study on this. But is it? I've got a theory which I think links into singleness, which is that the Bible shows trajectories. Now there's trajectory arguments an awful lot. There's lots of different ones. I think there's a theologian called William Webb who came up with a kind of theological, kind of theological trajectory argument. So from the beginning of creation all the way through the Bible, shows a trajectory. So you can look at slavery. For instance, people were born and made in the image of God, and then slavery is allowed, and then over time, that gets realized, until the 1800s when that gets abolished. But I wonder, I think there's these kind of two bookends of of how we think about these kind of ethics. And I think singleness gets into this as well. Because in Genesis, you've got a paradigm that marriage is good, but then you Jesus talks about in heaven that there will be no marriage. And so you've got this, the two ends that kind of hold each other in tension, that when we look at it theologically, there's marriage from creation, Genesis two and then. But in new creation, what Jesus talked about, there is no marriage. So actually there's this, this thing that actually we're not, we're on a trajectory not towards marriage in new creation, but actually. But there's a fulfillment of that in Christ. So I'll put either of you can jump in critique my theory really does that work? Do you see that? Do you think that there's that thing of Jesus, kind of saying that in new creation, there is no marriage? Do you think there's something that that promotes singleness. What's your thoughts? Either of you can jump in for this.
Amy Jorden 15:26
Well, yes, yeah, really interesting thought. And I'd say, so what? Because what marriage is, and I think what our culture, even our church Christian culture, gets so wrong is that we think often marriage is thought of, oh, if two people really love each other, then they are united together forever. But biblical marriage is so much more than that, isn't it? It's this sign, demonstration of witness to the love of God for His church. So it's way more important and way more powerful than I think we give it credit to in society. But so according to Genesis, then we see the what marriage does is it reverses the separating out of Adam and Eve, doesn't it? So Adam and Eve were so Eve was separated out of Adam, and then in marriage, it's that physical union. And when you see the joining again of what was separated out, and it's that, it's that's the purpose of what marriage is. It's to demonstrate a symbol of being united, being made whole again. And I think that that speaks to and alludes to the um, like displaying the whole image of God, reflecting the union of God himself being made complete and perfect and and obviously that's then this witness to what is going to come, what is to come. And so I think marriage attests to that, and I, I would suggest that singleness attests to the same thing, but in a in a different way, as in your living while you're single, you're living united with the one who's called your husband, and you are his bride, and I know the collective Church's bride, but that you are loved and made complete in him, so you are witnessing and attesting to that from a different point of view. So I think both can convey the same message. That's what Hannah saying. Both are good, and both are this real Gospel message of how Christ loves the church and how God loves us both. Can attest to that, and knowing that one day we will be made complete and whole, and you're right, then there won't be the need for people to marry, because they'll they'll be that completeness union, it
Hannah Williamson 17:59
feels like such a beautiful picture of the gospel in both settings, is what you're saying, isn't it? Because that that unifying with Jesus is like when you're single, that it's just you and him. And I just think, wow, that's that's really quite something. And I think that's why it's a problem, that in today's church world, we don't place as much value on it, because, actually, it is a beautiful picture of what will be at the end of time, where we're, yeah, like you're saying we're united with Jesus. So yeah, I think it's, it's trying to help people maybe change their mindset a little bit as to how we see it, because for for so long, or even now today, it's seen as like the second rate thing, when, actually, when we look at it in that light, it's far from that. You know,
Chris Bright 18:52
no, I think that's a really compelling thought, actually, that both marriage and singleness are in in in this way showing what the gospel is. It's this united with Christ and so in marriage, it's a symbol of by male and female being brought together in singleness, the person united with Christ and things, I think both, both point to that kind of future of what what life is to be like in new creation. So, yeah, no, I think that's that's great. And I'd love to change tack a little bit now and talk a little bit more of experience, a little bit both of you are currently single, and I'd love to hear your your experiences. Hannah, maybe I'll start with you, because we can talk about theology, but actually a lot of the time we what happens is we, we have experiences on the ground of what it's like to be treated in church or to be talked to in certain ways. Um, what's your experience this been like? Hannah, of. Of being single or and ministry in that as well. What experiences have you, have you had, and maybe, how has that informed some of your practices as being a pastor, church leader? Yeah,
Hannah Williamson 20:14
I mean, massive question, right? And you could talk about it for ages, I'm sure. And me and Amy, many a time have discussed our experiences. I'll tell a funny story to get started, because sometimes this can be a bit of a hefty topic. Um, at one time I was I was a youth pastor, and I was working in my office at the church, and I got a call to say that someone had come to meet me downstairs. So I came downstairs from my office, and there was a woman at the door, and she literally stared at me, and she said, The reason you're not married is you have not fasted and prayed for three days consecutively and asked God for a husband. So I was totally taken aback, because I was like, I don't even know who the woman is, and what on earth is she talking about. And at the time, I was maybe a little bit more sensitive than I would be now. And I just remember, like, just being in shock and not really having any form of answer, and just going around being really angry, and, to be honest, not finding it particularly funny. And then another point, I was told by a woman that I didn't eat enough to Lappy a fish, and apparently that's why I was single. So I have to attest to the fact that I've had all range of experiences being single. But yeah, being more serious? No, yeah, it's been, it's been tricky. And I think growing up in a church which was an amazing church, please don't get me wrong. And my parents had an amazing marriage, and marriage was modeled very well. I think it was just natural to think that that was the way things would go. And I think for me as someone that's in ministry as well, I just assumed that I would need to marry someone in order to be in ministry. And some of that was, you know, to do me being a woman. And so I realized as I started getting into ministry that that was not going to Well, that wasn't seeming to be the case. And so I think, yeah, it was difficult because it was such a, it was such a pushed thing. I mean, people all the time would say really quite inappropriate comments to me, like, when are you going to get married? Have you found someone yet? And I think particularly my 20s, I found that really difficult. I wasn't maybe as secure myself as I am now. I felt, yeah, like, oh gosh, like, maybe there's something wrong with me, and that's why it's not working out. And so I think, yeah, it was really tricky. But to be honest, I probably bought into that narrative as well. So I often think about when I was a youth pastor and how we would teach on relationships every year. Obviously really important, but I never, ever spoke about singleness. And I look back now and I think, why did I never do that like I was felt I wasn't qualified enough to speak about relationships, so I'd bring other people in, but I actually had something I could have shared, but didn't. So I advocate for that a lot now in youth ministries, because I think it needs to be spoken about because, like we said, it's of equal value. But I think because the narrative all around me was that that's what you're aiming for, it meant that that's how I felt. And so I think throughout my 20s, I really struggled, and I think it was only once I got into my 30s, maybe started looking a little bit more into this, tried to understand myself, became a little bit more confident in who I am and who I'm called to be, that I was able to like, I guess, take the pressure off myself and find a little bit of a rhythm of working, but I never want people to think, because now I look like I'm all okay with it, that it was always the case, because actually, it's been quite a difficult journey to sort of walk through. Yeah,
Chris Bright 23:58
yeah, and I can just testify to the tilapia fish, because, yeah, do you eat lots of tilapia fish? Yeah? Absolutely, yeah. That was my favorite fish growing up, and so that just happened to be that way. Amy, I'd love to answer you on this as well, not about the tilapia fish, but about your some of your experiences being in the church, ministering as a single person. How has that been for you?
Amy Jorden 24:32
Yeah, I think so. Again, I think naturally so. I'm from Gloucester in our church, people just got married young, so it was just the norm for all growing up, all my friends are getting married, like early 20s, 19, even my early 20s, really young. And so that was like Hannah said, it's just the norm. Warm. So when it's not, then happening for you, you very much, can feel like the odd one, out and well intentioned. People can just think that they're being encouraging. And actually our Tim Keller, in the meaning of marriage, gives examples of people being like, trying to be encouraging, but obviously, but sometimes it coming across as the opposite. So he points out things. Like we say, as soon as you're satisfied with God, he'll bring along someone special into your life, as though God's blessings are ever earned by our contentment. Or they'll say, add a single you can commit yourself wholeheartedly to the Lord's work, as though God requires emotional martyrs to do His work, of which marriage must be no part. And then the last example that he gives is people say, well, before you marry somebody, God needs to make you someone wonderful, as though God grants marriage as a second blessing to the satisfactorily sanctified. And he gives some great examples of, it's, it's the well meaning, well intentioned people that love you in church that often just convey something which for single people can be hard. And I think my experience has like been up and down. There are seasons where have been harder than others. I think overall, I've been so grateful to have great friendships and with married people and with single people, that's been so valuable, and it really made a difference. And there's been no in my opportunities in church. There's been no question about me being able to lead and being a pastor being single, and I know that's not the case for every church I've really been, yeah, blessed there, but there have been times where I've been in a conference setting with other ministers. And I'll say, Oh, I'm a pastor at one church in Gloucester. And the quote, the Oh, is your is your husband a pastor there too, and like just that association of, oh, if you are a pastor, your it must mean that your husband is also a pastor for you to be enabled to be a pastor, just that assumption, I guess which? Which? It may be more prominent in older generations. But me and Hannah were talking the other day about how young there's young leaders still questioning whether single people can be bastards. Those are really interesting. And again, it comes back to theology and all of that. So it I think for myself, in my journey in church leadership, I've been really blessedly part of a church that hasn't seen that as a barrier. But in I know a lot of singles within even within our church, have found it hard to be single and in church, not knowing who to sit with when they get into church, not really being able to make friends as easily with those that are married already. So there are, yeah, real challenges there they can experience. I think that's why it's great that we're talking about it is to see what we can do to help make their experience of church better. Because what's fascinating is research has been done that shows that the number of single people is increasing in society. So obviously, people are living longer, more people are getting widowed. People are getting married later, more people are getting divorced. So within our churches, more and more people are becoming single for various reasons, but research has showed that their engagement, even though that number's increasing, their engagement with church isn't increasing, and it's not relative. So there's a barrier to single people being involved and invested in church in the same way as their married counterparts, and so I think that really provides us with an opportunity and a challenge. Yeah, how can we better involve them and get them connected
Chris Bright 28:52
in Yeah, absolutely. I wonder whether we could dive into some of that, which is looking at maybe some of the strategies that you found effective in engaging single people. Hannah, for you in a ministry context. What? What strategies have you used in terms of being able to engage people in the church who are who are single, and being able to just help them and disciple them? Yeah.
Hannah Williamson 29:16
I mean, I think one thing we've got to realize is the importance of the church being a family. And I know Amy wrote a lot about this in her dissertation, which I loved reading. But we always say like, the church is the family of God, but family means people. Well, good family means that nobody is excluded and that you're welcome in in all environments. And I think sometimes in church, we can, like, segregate, even unintentionally. And so I think one of the things I often have like spoken about is how blessed I am that I've got such great friends who not just a single but are married as well, and accept me as a single woman. You. Yeah, in that context, because I think sometimes that can be hard, especially as you get older and you're single, like it's different when you're younger, but when you're older and all your friends or your peer group or all your age are married, naturally. I'm 40 now. I'm not necessarily going to be hanging out with an 18 year old who's single. Their experience is very different. I actually want to hang out with people own age. And also it's important for me to have friends at both male and female. Again, that's the family of God. And so one thing I'm just trying to encourage like married couples, is to open up their homes to singles, not in a like patronize and feel sorry way, but just in a normal way. And I think for me, I realized early on that often married couples who were my friends didn't invite me over. And so, I mean, maybe this was a bit forward, but I just started inviting myself. And I love doing hospitality, so I love having people to my house, and often I would invite people, and sometimes they wouldn't come, because by this stage, they'd got small kids, so that made it more difficult. So I just tried to find some ways around it. And thought if maybe they feel awkward inviting me over, so maybe if I just kind of push in a little bit. And actually, in doing that, I found that to be such a blessing. And actually there's couples in my world now where I just feel really, really comfortable. So I think when it comes to the church, I'm trying to encourage people by saying, Actually, let's be inclusive in settings. Now, of course, that can happen in small groups, but also just naturally as Jesus followers being hospitable and inviting people over and making people part of the family so they don't feel awkward. So I think I'm, yeah, very much trying to advocate for how those relationships are built, and trying to encourage that so that it doesn't become awkward for people that are single.
Chris Bright 31:53
Yeah, absolutely. Amy for you as well. What have you found that's been effective in engaging single people? I know you run in one church, you run a kind of a young professionals group, which is people that are married and people are single. Tell me a little bit about that and how that's engaged. People are single and those kind of things. Yeah. Give me some give you some thoughts on that.
Amy Jorden 32:14
Yeah. So we at church have, relatively recently, within the past year or so, started this young professionals group. So it's kind of 25 to 35 ish. And like you said, you've got people in it that are married and people that are single, but it really has attracted I pulled singles out of the woodwork, like people that maybe were disconnected and on the fringe, who would come into church by themselves and leave kind of as soon as it ended, have found a place where they can just make friends who are in similar life stages of life, and they can build relationships then so that when they walk into church, they recognize people, and they have people to sit with. And that has been so beneficial, and I think it really speaks into something that we can do as the church and as leaders to help single people connect better, and that's to help them discover friendship. And as a society, we're rubbish. I think celebrating friendship like I think it's something that's a little bit maligned and it's not really seen as that important. And again, what we do is we elevate the romantic relationships above anything else. But like biblically, friendship is so celebrated and really esteemed. And I think if we can get back to a place of really even, like when we're talking from stage to honor, celebrate esteemed friendship, and if we can create opportunities for people to discover friendships, I think that just transforms people. It's people's experience of church as a single person then. So yeah, I definitely recommend finding ways to facilitate. We also can't force people to be friends, and we can't assume that just because they're single, they will be friends. But I do think we can do, do whatever we can to facilitate friendships. Yeah, and that makes a huge difference. Something else I
Hannah Williamson 34:12
was just thinking as well. I guess following on from that is trying to help singles find purpose and purpose in the season they're in, but purpose generally in life, right? And I think a lot of the time for many people, marriage is like, or even having children is their purpose, and that becomes the primary thing. And I think for a lot of singles, they're asking, what is like, kind of, what is my purpose? And so I think, yeah, it's really important for churches to even help with that and provide opportunity. So one of the things I've written about in the book that I've written on this is about providing opportunity for mission so if you look back in history, so many singles went on the mission field. I mean, it's quite unbelievable numbers, if you look into it. And so, and I often think as well, if you're seeing. You may have more disposable income, potentially, not always, but potentially. And so actually, I've got loads of single friends that just love going on holiday, and they're like, Well, you know, I'm not, I'm not married, I've not got children, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna do that. And so I'm trying to think, gosh, like, what if we provided more opportunities for mission, so that people found some level of purpose in God by being able to serve the Great Commission. And so I think it's it's thinking through some of those things, and how maybe for a single those opportunities may even look different to somebody that's married. They might not have as many complex things to think through, yeah, whereas they might be like, Yeah, I definitely would go on, go on a missions trip, and so, yeah, I think it's helping people find purpose, same with serving, although I think there can also be maybe a slight danger to make sure we don't, like over emphasize that on single sort of assuming they've got loads more time, when actually their time might just be different. But I think, yeah, trying to help people in the church, both married and single, to find purpose that's not just in relationships, is really important.
Chris Bright 36:09
I'm wondering, thinking about what you're saying there, and I'm thinking about that there are lots of people who are single within the church, and they're probably single, but they probably don't want to be single, and so this kind of singleness by default, rather than singleness by that sense of calling or sense of purpose. How do you maybe come to Amy to you first on this? How do you support and pass to those people that are that are one that don't want to be single, but a single by by default. How do you help them in that time? For some it may be that they never find people. I know that they show my age now. I say dating change since I, you know, since I got married. And, you know, we've got more online things now and but for some people, they want, they definitely want to get married, but they they they can't find the right person, and all those kind of things. And I think that's, that is the case, and that's, it's quite a prevalent thing in our society. How do you support those people that maybe don't fall into that category of, maybe they don't want to accept a single that they really, definitely want to get married? How do you support them there?
Amy Jorden 37:22
Yeah, I think discipleship is really key, as in really understanding someone's journey and journeying it with them. So to really have, I think, is so valuable when you've got somebody, whether they're single or not, but somebody that really understands and hears where you're at. So for those that are single, I like I wouldn't want them if they're having a bit of a tough season, actually, really wanting to find a spouse, I wouldn't want to come at them with Well, Paul said, it's a gift. You should appreciate it. Make the most of it. While you've got it. It's a blessing. Like that's not like you just need to pastor and disciple well and to weep with those who weep and mourn, with those who mourn and like we've got ladies in our church who would love to have children, and their fat their mums want them to have children, but they're it just hasn't happened, and so you mourn that with them, and have to, I think that's where maybe for those who pastors, who have been married from a really young Age, that may take a little bit more work to really try and understand and empathize with that. I think that's really important, that we just disciple well whilst holding the tension. So yes, we mourn and grieve through seasons whilst holding the tension of recognizing the goodness in the gift as well. So reminding, having to, like, remind those that are single, sometimes, of the good things and the benefits, and like exploring that and exploring things that only you can do now like that. So I've got, I've had conversations with my friends that are married, and they say, Oh, I wish I could go on holiday like you could. Or I wish I could just have a long time and just not be touched by small children for a good period of time. And like, I think, being reminded of the benefits of the season that you're in, as well as acknowledging the challenges of it.
Chris Bright 39:44
Yeah. What about for you, Hannah? What have you found effective in helping those people that are single, but we're just, really, just don't want to be and but they, but they're, they're forced into that season. Yeah. I
Hannah Williamson 39:56
mean, I guess I would say I don't know that. I've. Really spoken to someone who tells me they feel they've got a lifelong calling to singleness. So I guess this, this category of people is a rather it's quite a large category. And even if you're speaking maybe the other end of things, where someone's widowed and they're having to face that, that's also like they may not want to be married, but they may long for what they did once have, you know, so there's just very there's lots of levels of complexity. And I think we don't have a great theology of suffering, like, personally, particularly in the Western Church, and so we don't want to, like, talk about the difficult things. And I think that's why people often say the kind of glib comments like, oh, just like, hold on to hope. Don't worry. Like, hopefully something will happen or you'll meet somebody, whereas, I think, yeah, like, Amy's saying just even being able to sit with people in their pain, like, as as you were speaking, Amy, I was thinking of a time a few months ago where we were at a conference together, and we were sat at a table having a cup of tea, and I just said, I'm not okay at the moment. Like, I'm really struggling with this. I'm leading up to being 40, and I'm like, I'm not okay. And I think, Wow, I'm so privileged to have friends that I feel comfortable enough to do that with. But coming back again, I guess, to the friendship side of things, people don't often be are not often that vulnerable and are not often that open with people. So I think trying to create environments where you can share those kind of things, and people can sit in that with you, just like, you know, we know Job's friends weren't always great with him, but there was a point where they sat in the dust with him and didn't say anything. And sometimes that's just what you need in that. And so I think even like and I think this is not just around singleness when we talk about suffering, but helping people to actually create friendship and create relationships where they can be really honest about this, so that we can, we can sit with people. And I think we as the church, gotta do a little bit better at trying to help people learn to be a little bit more vulnerable and talk that stuff through is important.
Chris Bright 42:04
Yeah, I think you're absolutely right when you when you talk about friendship, I think that's something that we've lost in the West, in that we've because I'm reminded of, you know, the David and Jonathan friendship dynamic. And what's happened is, especially, maybe in more progressive circles, we've sexualised that friendship, and we said, well, you know, and we start making nefarious comments about what was it more than? But actually it's very clear from the text, it was, it was a, it was a very strong friendship. And perhaps there's something already inbuilt in the text, in in the Bible story, of of what friendship really can be, and the intimacy, not in a in a sexual sense, but in an intimacy in that that that knowing each other, knowing people really, really well, that's different from it being sexualized. I wonder whether that's you know, where Amy, I know you. This is something you've been thinking about with, with your with your dissertation, you went to some of this, but maybe have has this kind of the sexual revolution has that impacted how we as even as a church, how we even approach friendship?
Amy Jorden 43:12
Yeah, definitely. And I think you're right. So that Jonathan and David example was brilliant, because you're right. I think yeah, in a lot of circles, if I read that, and we even if we don't assume, Oh, there must have been that something sexual about their relationship, we, at least we struggle with that language. I don't, I think it would be really rare for somebody to say, Oh, I grieve for you, my brother. Your love for me is more wonderful than that of women like I don't think there are many men who would say that about a friend. And I think as a society, we the sexual revolution, you're right, has just really warped the way that we view relationships as a whole. But one example, I think, when we commemorated the same centenary for the outbreak of World War One. There was a radio documentary done, and some of the letters from soldiers were read out on this radio show. And it really showed this, like this depth of friendship that was forged by the horrors of what they experienced, and strong emotion, like emotive language, and I love the one another, like that camaraderie came through. What was really interesting was a lot of the comments on that show were, oh, well, those soldiers must have there must have been something, this hidden desire for one another. They must have been gay, and we automatically assume, as a society, that if there is a deep affection, then that deep affection must be sexual, and on our knowledge and experience of friendship is just so far removed, I think, from what it's meant to be and what the Bible paints it as. Because you're right. Intimacy is synonymous for our society with being sexual like it's we can't have an intimacy that's not physical. Yeah, I think the Bible, you're right, Jonathan and David paint that picture. We like proverbs. Paints this beautiful picture of a friend that loves at all times a friend that sticks closer than a brother, and I think we've kind of renegated friendship to like a verb that you action on Facebook more than something that is meant to be this consistent, supportive, almost familial kind of relationship
Hannah Williamson 45:44
really powerful. Isn't it that there's parts in the Bible where there are covenant relationships between friends, so Jonathan and David would be a classic of that. Or even, like Ruth and Naomi. Is this? Like, yeah, I'm I'm committing to this relationship. Like quite strong language that often is used in the context of marriage. But actually this is a friendship thing. And I think because we don't maybe teach on friendship so much, we don't have that level of covenantal relationships with one another, whereas I think there is opportunity for that, which can be particularly for a single can be really healthy. But actually, I think for married couples as well, having friendships outside is important too. So I think we, yeah, need to get back to sort of explaining that a bit more.
Amy Jorden 46:31
And I think not only will that then be a benefit to single people, but it's also said it will be a sign to other people. So there's the verse in John where it says about as you love one another, if you love one another, you'll show yourself to be my disciple. So the more that we can love each other and have that right, more than just a marriage relationship, but as we love one another, that's going to be a sign to the community around us. Yeah,
Chris Bright 46:59
absolutely. And I remember hearing a similar thing Amy, when you talked about people from World War One and those letters, I remember seeing someone on on BBC News, and he was a world war two veteran, and he said, with tears in his eyes, he was really, I think he was pretty famous at the time. You know, it was on the news a fair bit, and he talked about how the love he had for his his brothers in arms, as it were, who were at war with him, he said it was greater than the love of women, which actually really stood out at the time, because he said it's only when you're in those situations that you really get to know someone. And I thought that was a fascinating it kind of showed a glimpse into what true friendship is. And it's often it's the intimacy isn't just for it's not just a sexual thing, but it's formed in the in in difficult times. It's formed in adventure as well. And so I think it's an encouragement that, I think that for the church, I think there's something that's that can be refound there as well. I wonder, or as we kind of close this conversation out, what would be your kind of, your hope and prayer for for singles in the church? Moving forward, Amy, I'll come to you first on this. What would be your kind of if I was to say, you know, what would you what would you love to see for singles in the church, moving forward, what would you say
Amy Jorden 48:26
to me? I think I'd love to see singles recognize that their singleness can be this beautiful demonstration of the gospel, and that can be like their loudest gospel message, to see it as something that can bring glory to God and benefit people around them. If they can have that understanding, then even in the hard times like that can, yeah, just be for the benefit of others in the glory of God.
Chris Bright 48:55
Great and same. To you, Hannah, what's your hope and prayer for singles in the church?
Hannah Williamson 48:59
Yeah, I guess, I just hope there can be a little bit of a mindset shift around this so that we can, yeah, I guess, similar to what Amy said, see it as a positive, but also making the wider church a little bit more aware, so that we can change some of the things that maybe we've done as churches not to help this. So, you know, changing our language, changing our perception and just trying to be a lot more inclusive and helping singles, I think, find purpose and meaning and yeah, just changing the way we think about it
Chris Bright 49:32
great and more tilapia fish is that maybe the final Hannah and Amy. Thank you so much for joining me today. Really, really enjoyed it. I think this is a really important conversation for church leaders to be thinking through, because it really affects ministry, it affects strategy, it affects your theology and so thank you so much for taking the time to talk to me today.
Unknown Speaker 49:55
Thank you.
Chris Bright 49:59
Thanks so much. For joining me today. Really enjoyed that conversation with Hannah and with Amy. Join me next week for the next podcast. Take care. You.
