Dr. Wolfgang Vondey 0:00
If we ask ourselves, what's the image of the church? The church must be an image that exhibits this kind of brokenness of humanity, because it's not, it's real, but it also exhibits the transformation of this brokenness, because it's about that kind of salvation. It's about God's aim to pick that up so acts, right the book of Acts, it picks that up in the way the disciples act, but also in the way the crowd, the public, responds, right? There is this mocking, oh, look at these Galileans. How can these Galileans do that? And there's a mocking of, oh, they're drunken, right? They're filled with new wine.
So this, that's really an expression of that kind of brokenness.
Chris Bright 0:47
Welcome back to the thinking church podcast. My name is Chris, and today my guest is Wolfgang vonde, and I had a great conversation with him. Now, a little bit about Wolfgang he is a classically trained systematic theologian with a PhD in the field of systematic theology and ethics, he teaches and researches at Birmingham University in the area of contemporary Christianity and Pentecostal and charismatic studies. He also teaches the Master of Arts program in evangelical and charismatic studies and directs the Center for Pentecostal and charismatic studies with the teaching and supervision in the department of theology and religion. Uh, you'll really, really enjoy this conversation with him. Now, before I get to that, I just want to quickly let you know that we have a persona sheet that you can download. And basically what that is, is it is a if you are trying, if you're a church leader, you need to know who you're trying to reach in your community. You want to make sure that you are not just kind of just blindly, just kind of doing anything, but you're being really, really careful about knowing who's in your community and who you can reach. Now the first place you've got to start with that is looking at your demographics. So you can look at some census data, but the second thing you need to do is take that census data and actually get under the skin of the people that you're trying to reach. And this is where my persona sheet can really, really help you. And what it will do is it will help you think through and get into the lives of the people in your area, in your catchment area, of your church. So thinking about things like, what books do they read and what podcasts they listen to, all those kind of things. I've got a massive list of things that will help you, and you can do that. You can print it off, do two or three of these, and do two or three personas that your church can reach. Now, when you do anything, then you can then think through, how is that helping to reach, you know, George or Lucy or whoever? And this will be a really great help to so you can click the link in the description and it will you can download that for free, and I hope that is a help for you right now. Onto the podcast. This is my conversation with Dr Wolfgang Von D
Well, my name is Chris. I'm here with Volkan vondi. Volfgang, it's great to have you on the podcast today. Welcome. Thank you so much for joining me.
Dr. Wolfgang Vondey 3:05
Yeah, thanks Chris for having me. I'm really glad to be part of something that connects our academic life with the church life. So thanks for giving me the opportunity.
Chris Bright 3:14
Brilliant, brilliant, well, we're here to talk about your latest publication, which is the scandal of Pentecost. And I really like to dive into the inspiration around that book, what inspired you to write it, and why do you think this message could be really relevant for church leaders today?
Dr. Wolfgang Vondey 3:32
Thanks, Chris. It's an interesting question to ask about inspiration. When it comes to academic work, we often think that we don't need to be inspired for that. And you know, I think when I, when I look back at it, I was thinking of the church and I was thinking of Jesus. I was trying to to relate the two. And of course, we should think of, well, that's what we do, right? We think of Jesus in light of the church and the church in light of Jesus. But I wasn't quite sure if we really, really captured how the two are similar. And what I discovered was that we tend to think of Jesus in a kind of glorified image. We think of Jesus as the powerful Son of God, the Redeemer, the Savior, the one who does miracles then, or things like that. And we tend to think of the church in very similar, glorified ways, as the body of Christ. It's able to do things. It's on a mission to the world. It's it's participating in the kingdom of God. It has this goal. But when I looked at the New Testament, I thought of looking for these kinds of images, and I found that there were actually quite a stark contrast to the images that I found. I found that Jesus was described well as a scandal, that he was a stumbling block. I found the gospel was described as a scandal that the word itself is used frequently in the New Testament. Jesus Himself is aware that he is a scandal, that he will scandalize others, that it's inevitable for him to scandalize others. And when I looked at the Gospel of John, especially, you find places where all are scandalized, all of his followers desert Jesus. So I instead of this glorified image, I found struggle. I found correction. I found contradiction of of public expectations. So then I began to ask, well, how does the church fit this How does the church follow this image? Does the church follow this image? Does it? Should it follow this image? And to me, that was relevant, because the churches that I have observed, well, they like to be anything but scandalous. They like to be popular. They like to be seeker friendly. They like to be a place where you go and that where you fit. But if, if Jesus was a scandal, if Jesus was, in that way, offensive, a stumbling block, does this? This mentality of the church today, the popularity, does that? Does that point to Jesus? And if this mentality is not endorsed by Jesus, then, well, what does it mean to be a church? Does it mean to be a scandal? So the goal, then, for my work was really to understand the nature of the scandal of Jesus and to show how this scandal continues in the church, and because the church arises with the outpouring of the spirit of Pentecost, that's where I focused on. My attention to ask, How is Pentecost a scandal? And does the scandal of Pentecost compare to the scandal of Jesus Christ? So that's really what inspired the book.
Chris Bright 6:38
Well, that's, I mean, that's a fascinating thesis for a book. And I think that you know, when you talk about the modern church, we try, and we try to be quite seeker friendly. We've been trying to, and I wonder whether you look at you talk about in your book about it, we've embraced a kind of a largely sort of privatized Christianity and privatized theology. Talk to me about that. What? What do? What do you mean by when you say a privatized theology, and how does that contrast with the sort of the public nature of Pentecost?
Dr. Wolfgang Vondey 7:13
Yeah, thank you. I think that's an important part of what I'm trying to do, or what I discovered. Really, the starting point for this is that Jesus was a public scandal. He wasn't a loner, he wasn't withdrawn. He didn't live an isolated, privatized life just by himself, somewhere, withdrawn in a desert or something like that. He was a public figure and a public scandal. And the public nature of Jesus is very important. We wouldn't have a church with a private Messiah. We have the church because he's a public figure and because of the way that he he taught and behaved and acted as a public figure. So if the church continues the scandal of of Christ, and that was a public scandal, then the church must be a public scandal in some form. So when we think of it that way, then, of course, I have to say, Well, be careful. The scandal here is not what we read in tabloid journalism. It's not a shocking exposure of the Fails of Christians some kind of morally apprehensive action or something like that. Rather, the scandal, the public scandal we see, is a mechanism, a public mechanism that confronts false expectations of the public in order to correct them. So Jesus was scandalous in the way that he acted and then the way that he taught, because he contradicted Jewish laws and Jewish expectations and Jewish Scriptures, at least the interpretations of those scriptures. So the scandal there, the public scandal there was that perhaps, theologically put it in a nutshell, Jesus is the Word of God that has become flesh. And when you think of it that way, this, this reality is scandalous because we can't really reconcile the two sides of it, that Jesus is the Messiah in the flesh, and therefore Jesus must die in the flesh. How do we reconcile that he is the savior and yet He must die? This kind of contradiction, the sheer irreconcilability of these two aspects that leads to widespread public outrage. Again, it's not a private outrage. There's not individuals. There is a whole group of his followers, the whole group of people he meets, whether that's ordinary Jews or whether that's tax collectors or whether that's Pharisees. So Pentecost then has its own scandal. That's also a public scandal. We wouldn't have the church if the disciples were private individuals who somewhere were withdrawn in some room. It's a public scandal. And again, here the the spirit is poured out on on all flesh, and it when it's poured out, what happens is that the church enters a Leaves the the Upper Room, enters the streets, enters the city, enters the public life. So the spirit really leads the church into the public, into Jerusalem, and if we want to take the kind of language of of that into Samaria and to the ends of the world, so public means global, not not individual, not private, not personal, even though that's part of it. The goal is really a public engagement. So the problem here now is that Pentecost has, I think, become encapsulated in certain doctrines and ideas that are very privatized, Spirit baptism, perhaps even speaking in tongues. Those kinds of of ideas, sanctification, empowerment. These are for personal reasons, not for public reasons. We think of them as individuals who are now empowered, individuals who now lead a closer life to God or or have a better relationship with Jesus. Those kinds of individual reasons, private reasons, rather than, say, public, public reasons for the church. So it's now. It's now about a spirituality, not about a scandal. It's about spiritual gifts or personal prayer language, not about what I call the public confrontation of false expectations regarding God and the kingdom. So in that sense, the church, and that may include Pentecostal and charismatic movements, the Church, has drifted away from Pentecost as an event that was a public proclamation, that was an event of public empowerment, that was a public confrontation and a public transformation of others. So we see the transformation of the disciples, then we see that broadening to the Jews, to to further generations, beyond those that are present, and then eventually even to the Gentiles and the nations. So this is a broad public scandal, and it's really important to say that this scandal is not about the church at all. It's about the world and about the salvation of the world. So in that sense, I think it was important for me to clarify the scandal and the nature of it, so that I could understand that we can understand how the church is a public entity, rather than, say, a collection of individuals who happen to share the same spirituality.
Chris Bright 12:20
Yes, you talk in your book about the spirit being poured out on all flesh. And I know that's something, you know, I've certainly grown, you know, growing up in the Pentecostal Charismatic Movement myself. You hear about that, but it's very much a very, still, very personal thing. How do you think church, you just could better understand that term all flesh, that spirit being poured out on all flesh. Yeah, how do you think church leaders could better understand that?
Dr. Wolfgang Vondey 12:46
Yeah, I heard that question before Chris, and it's not unusual. And I think what I sense in the question is, is a certain level of discomfort with the word flesh, at least unfamiliarity with its involvement, and I think that's highly significant, the flesh is not something that appears in church, right? We don't hear that Christians are, I think, highly uncomfortable, because we associate the flesh with things we should avoid. We hear Paul, the apostle, saying, flesh and blood shall not enter the kingdom of God. We think of the flesh as something that is the root of temptation of our desires and our lusts. So, so how can you think of the flesh being part of the church? So for that reason, typical interpretations of that phrase in the book of Acts that the spirit is put out on all flesh include that the spirit is put out on the church, or the spirit is put out on the disciples, or the spirit is put out on Christians, right, or on people. But you don't see a straightforward sense of that. What's actually in the in the text, namely, that it's poured out on all flesh and and even more so, this is what I really found scandalous myself. Pentecost is not only a scandal of the flesh, it's a scandal of all flesh. The spirit is not just poured out on flesh, it's poured out on all flesh. So if you think of it with that phrase, which is what I examine in the in the book, there are really two consequences I think that are significant. One, I think, is that Christians are uncomfortable with the flesh, involving the flesh in the spiritual life. So that's a challenge to church leaders. And the second is that, well, we neglect the outpouring of the Spirit beyond the confines of the church. All flesh goes beyond just Christians and disciples. So my response would be that what I say in the book is that Pentecost is a scandal of humanity, with the church as its core, with the church at the heart of the scandal. But it's not just a scandal of the church. It's a scandal of humanity, because the church represents humanity. So that's something I wanted to interpret. And I think. Way that I go about that is that the spirit is poured out on flesh, because it is God's intention to transform the flesh, not to abandon it, not to isolate it. So God, God's salvation, the redemption that we, that we have been promised, embraces the whole humanity, including our flesh, including our flesh with its age, with its ethnicity, with its gender, with its desires. It's a transformation of the whole human being and and the second part was all flesh, right? So it's poured out on all flesh. And to me, that points to significant parts in the text that that show us that the spirit is put out on men and women, is poured out on young and old, is put out on slave and free. So we can't privatize this event or Christianize this as a form of Spirit baptism that only affects in a certain individuals and only affects them in a certain way. Right? It's something that that really affects the whole of humanity. So we should emphasize that it's about the transformation. It's about the salvation of the world. This is not an unbridled universalism. Mark you, right. So it's not about, Well, God saves everybody. It's about God promising and God giving the spirit to everyone. Of course, there is a difference in the texts between the spirit being poured out on all flesh, but received only by some. So not everyone does receive the Spirit. There are things that we need to, of course, consider to receive the Spirit, but it is about God's vision to transform and to redeem humanity with all that we have, that with all that we are created as so that, I think, is the importance of all flesh.
Chris Bright 16:50
Yeah, it certainly seems it has much more of a worldwide perspective. Rather than just being this sort of private I receive the Holy Spirit, which, of course, that's, that's part of it, but there's so much more and wider, and it's speaks to what God's doing in the whole world, which I really, I really do like that. You probably it does link into how you talk about the church being a symbol, and you describe it as being a symbol of brokenness and transformation. What do you mean by that? What's what is that? Why is the church a symbol, and how does it act as a symbol?
Dr. Wolfgang Vondey 17:24
Yeah, if we go back to where I started, the sense that that we see a glorified image of these things. But instead, what I discovered was that the that the church and Jesus are not a triumphalist image, then we must say that if the church is the symbol of humanity, it cannot mean that it's only a symbol of redeemed and glorified humanity. It is also allowing humanity to participate in its brokenness, in its volatility, in its suffering, that is part of it. So Pentecost, if you look at it, it doesn't show a superhero church. It shows disciples that are anxious. They're anticipating, they're waiting, they're following Jesus's command to tarry. They don't know exactly what that means, and we see them struggle, even when they receive the Spirit and afterwards, with how to act this, this out, this being church. So brokenness and transformation in the church highlights the continuity of the church with the brokenness of Christ. There's a realism in this, in this discovery. And maybe you could say this is a realistic, or realist ecclesiology image of the church, the church must be an image that exhibits this kind of brokenness of humanity, because it's not, it's real, but it also exhibits the transformation of this brokenness, because it's about that kind of salvation. It's about God's aim to pick that up so acts, right? The book of Acts, it picks that up in the way the disciples act, but also in the way the crowd, the public, responds, right? There is this mocking, oh, look at these Galileans. How can these Galileans do that? And there's a mocking of, oh, they're drunken, right? They're filled with new wine. So this, that's really an expression of that kind of brokenness, the spirit transforms the disciples, but not without the quirks, not without this brokenness, not without the struggles, right? That's particularly important for Pentecostals. It's not like we receive the Spirit and all of a sudden everything else is gone. We are empowered, we are sanctified, we have the gifts of the Spirit. But it's a real transformation that still continues with the suffering, with the brokenness that we've had, you know, before. So I think that kind of showing that transformation is important because it's a provocation to the public. It provokes because it contains both, but it also is important that in that confrontation, the public isn't pointed. The church itself, because the church is not that superhero church, because of the brokenness that's being transformed by God, the public is pointed to God as the source of that transformation, and that, I think, is very important. We're not highlighting the church. We're not putting ourselves up. We are always pointing. We are always pointing to God. So it's, it's neither triumphalism nor surrender. It's a realism that Christians live a life that, well, what's it called more than conquerors. We are more than conquerors. But even though we are more than conquerors, we are still conquering. We're still currently engaged in that act. It's still going on. So overcoming that conquer, overcoming coming the boundaries and the challenges also raises awareness of the power of the transformation that is available by the Spirit. And I think that, again, points eventually to to God, at the source of our redemption and our transformation. So that's what's important to me.
Chris Bright 20:59
Mm, it really reminds me of, I saw the the opening of the Olympic Games, in the Paris Olympic Games, and there was this, you know, outrage about this kind of the the symbol of the Last Supper. And actually, how that links back to, actually, how the the Last Supper, but also the what Jesus was the work of the Cross, but also, then, of course, Pentecost as well. It's not this triumphalistic thing. It's actually something that was deeply scandalous and is also being continually scandalized throughout history as well. So I think it's really fascinating that we are back. We become that symbol, not just of the triumphant Christ, but also of the of Christ who was crucified as a slave. And I think that's, I think there's, there's something that there that I think is really fascinating. And for church leaders that are listening to this, how do you think that they could think through about that kind of the scandal of Pentecost. How do you think that they might embrace a more sort of public scandal, rather than it just all being very individualistic, and individual, that kind of individualism, and what do you think that they could think through what some of the challenges maybe they might face in embracing that sort of public scandal?
Dr. Wolfgang Vondey 22:18
Yeah, thanks, Chris. I think you put it well, it's a public challenge. There are public challenges, and I think it's important that we understand as Christians, that church leaders and churches and communities understand what it means to be public. It means that Christianity is not private individual, but it's also not institutional. There is some there's another entity involved, where the private and the institutional participate in the public life, but it doesn't go to either extremes. So the church is is a public concern that includes the person, the individual, and it includes the institution, but both also are and are engaged in in the world and in the public life in a broader sphere. So that's something that leaders have to be aware of, because then they may have something we might call a risk, a dual risk, really right? Because the public holds certain issues not to belong in the church. The Church may hold certain issues not to belong in the world. We might think of certain issues as private issues, and they don't belong either in the church as an institution or in the world. So, so where do we actually draw the lines between this kind of engagement? I think that's a real challenge that isn't just responded to with some kind of simple analogy, but if we want to respond to that again, I think the starting point has to be, this is not a call to tabloid journalism, right? So Jesus doesn't get up and say, let's all be scandalous in some weird way or some morally questionable or abusive way. That's not what this is about. Being public isn't just to get up and somehow draw attention to yourself. Rather it's, it's, if I can put it that way, the scandal is to live the life of the gospel in a public way, in contrast to the authoritative expectations that we find are existing about what it means to be Christ, what it means to be a Christian. So these kinds of authoritative expectations, they can exist in the church and they can exist outside of the church. And the task of the community is to discern what is the proper life of the Christian, to endorse the gospel and to point to Christ and as a scandalous community, it is their task to, let's say, confront and correct the kind of expectations that are not Christ like that are not representative of God's work. So in order to be this kind of public scandal, the church must, in a way, accept the offensiveness of. Gospel, it's a model. The church is a model, but the church is also an anti model, and we see that in the New Testament. This only works when the disciples no longer reject Jesus's teaching of the cross, because they reject his image of the crucified Messiah. And of course, they reject the image of themselves as as crucified disciples, right? Once they accept, once they understand, once they comprehend, once they experience that, that that that the Messiah had to die, that the cross was that part of of the of God's plan. It also was transferred to the church, that we are like Christ also to take up our cross, and that, I think, is the challenge of the public scandal, again, brokenness and transformation, right? It's not for us that we die. It's for us to to die spiritually, but to be raised to new life. And that kind of that is a public scandal, to to challenge that we are that symbol of humanity that is both broken but also transformed. So I think for church leaders, it means that churches have to become more transparent, have to become Christians, have to become more honest, more humble about who they are and their brokenness, to share that church means also suffering, sharing and suffering, as much as it means sharing and healing, church means sacrifice, and it means confrontation of evil, even the demonic powers that resist God and and everything that we need to do to point to God, to point to Christ, to point to the Spirit. So that kind of humility and transparency, I think is an initial first step. And if we as churches, become more transparent, including our suffering and brokenness, I think we become more scandalous, because we show that we are real, but we also show that God has transformed us and raised us up in Christ in a way that nothing else can so I think that's a good start for us.
Chris Bright 27:05
Yes, certainly, and certainly agree when you talk about I think that the church has had plenty of negative scandal, and we've seen too many examples of that, and I think we all want to see less of those kind of scandals. But I think, also, I think sometimes we're so worried that we're going to potentially offend, or as we standing up for, for, for what Christ teaches, that we sometimes narrow ourselves in a little bit and try and play it a little bit safe. And I think I remember hearing the historian Tom Holland said, saying that you don't want to sound like a sort of a Labor Party manifesto in your preaching. And so I wonder how you talked about being more more transparent. And I wonder how does that practically look for church leaders? Does that mean embracing being more in the public domain? Is it being more talking about how those things you know, is it being more political? Is it being how does that practically work out for for a church leader? Do you think?
Dr. Wolfgang Vondey 28:05
Yeah, thanks, Chris. So I think what I do here is Pentecostal theology, even though, unlike my previous work over the last 20 years, this is, this isn't directed only at Pentecostals, but it does come from my sensitivities for Pentecost and for the outpouring of the Spirit, and for the Spirit's work and for the Spirit's gifts. So I think my response would be that it's, it's we have to acknowledge that the Spirit is given as a public gift. It's it the Spirit of God is poured out on all flesh. It's a public outpouring. That does not mean, though, that everyone receives the spirit. So this discrepancy is, I think, very important in the steps that we have to take in the way that we can become more public those who have received the Spirit, I think they must begin by acknowledging that spiritual gifts are gifts for the public life. They're not gifts for the church. They're not gifts that are used internally. They're not gifts that are used exclusively in the Christian community. Now we can, right, we can exercise the gifts in the church, and we should, but they're not meant only to be exercised in the church. The function of the Spirit is in the scandal is clearly oriented to the church for the sake of the world. Is oriented to the disciples for the sake of the redemption of of public life. So the steps are to become the public church, right to become a public community. And how could we do that? I think it's rather straightforward. The church is made for people. It's not an individual affair. So we have to create communities that are open to people. It's not an insider affair, it's not a community for Christians, it's a community for everyone. So we have to become a community that's open.Non Christians, to non believers, to atheists, to people who reject it, to have struggles with it. Right? So in our society, that alone is scandalous to open a community to everyone. It's not about tolerance. It's not about saying we accept everyone, regardless of how evil or how bad or whatever weirdness they have. There is a different point to this, so maybe we have to reflect on that a little bit if, if the church is is made for people, then I think going to people is not just for mission. There is this long term historical image that what the church does when it goes outside of the church is it does its mission, right? But mission tends to be we come and go, or actually, it's more like we go and come back, right? But the involvement in the public life cannot be that kind of come and go. It has to be, well, we stay becoming a public church is to stay in the public life and be involved long term in the community. Be involved in the neighborhoods, be involved in organizations for the sake of the public, and that only works when you invest yourself in that public life. Jesus was invested so much invested that people would call him a drunken and a glutton and and someone who associates with sinners and tax collectors because he did it over and over and over and over again. He didn't just come and go, he he was part of that behavior. So I think that's that's very important, because when we do that as as Christians like Jesus, then then, you know, we enter into that companionship with sinners, with social outcasts, by rejecting and reorganizing normative roles and identities and relationships, and in our society, that's scandalous. Church should be a public community where everyone can come regardless of whether they're considered a high member of society or whether they're considered a sinner or whatever else right we might say today about those people. And when you think about mission, maybe I can, I can end there. Mission is, for many, often evangelism. So when the church goes out right when it's a public church, it means we go and fly, put flyers out into people's boxes, or talk to them about Christ. But it's not just about the gospel, involvement with others, a public a public church that must include all the gifts of the Spirit. If the Spirit is poured out on on everyone and and we can receive the Spirit, then let's use the gifts of the Spirit, so the speaking gifts, but we talk to everyone, we prophesy. We speak in tongues, the healing gifts, the fruit of the Spirit, right? Love, joy, peace that's given to the world, and the world, if it receives these gifts, will turn to God. So I think that, too, is scandalous. We think of gifts in a way of well, I know that we give them to our loved ones. We are given these because God so loves us, but the fact is that God gives us the gift, so give them away. It's a scandal. We're not supposed to keep them. We're supposed to share them with the world. So they too can receive these gifts. They too can receive the gift of the Spirit, and they too can receive the gift of Christ. So I think that really is what it means to be public, a public understanding of the Spirit and making the gift of God available to others, and I think that will lead people to Pentecost, and Pentecost will lead people to the Spirit, and the Spirit will lead people to Christ. And Christ, of course, will lead people to God. So what else can we do but to be part of that, that wonderful plan?
Chris Bright 33:36
Yeah, I think this is a fantastic thing that we've got. How come the church become more more public? So I think what I'll do is I'll put the link to for the book in the description, and I just think I really encourage all church leaders watching this to to buy it, to read it, and because I think there's so much there that's really practical for church leaders. If you if you think this through, and you sort of absorb this, I think it can be really beneficial for every church leader that's that's watching this and Wolfgang. And thank you so much for joining me today. I really appreciate you taking the time, and I will. I'm sure I'll see you again soon. So thank you so much for for taking the time and all the best with your with your future works.
Dr. Wolfgang Vondey 34:17
And thanks very much, Chris,
Chris Bright 34:21
thanks so much for listening to this podcast today. I hope you really enjoyed it, and there'll be more podcasts like this soon. So why not subscribe and drop us a comment as well? We'd love to hear your thoughts, what you learned from the podcast, and I'll be back with another podcast very soon. Bye. Bye. You.
